I need to implement yet another database website. Let's say roughly 5 tables, 25 columns, and (eventually) thousands to tens of thousands of rows. Easy data entry and maintenance are more important than presentation of the data to non-privileged users. It's a niche site, so performance is not a concern. We'll have no trouble finding somewhere to host it.
So: what's a good platform for this? Intituitively I feel that there ought to be some platform that allows this to be done with no code written - some web version of MS Access. Obviously I'm happy to code business rules, and special logic that distinguishes this from every other database app.
I've looked at Drupal (with Views) and it looks possible, but with quite a bit of effort. Will look at Al Fresco next. A CMS-y platform helps because then you can nicely integrate static content, you get nice styling, plugins, etc etc.
Really good data entry (tracking changes, logging, ability to roll back, mass imports...) would be great. If authorised users could do arbitrary SQL queries (yes, I know...) that would be a big bonus. Image management support a small bonus.
Django is what you are looking for. In fact, you could probably set up what you ask without much coding at all, just configuration.
Once complete, authorised users can add 'rows' with a nice but simple GUI, or, of course, you can batch import via database commands.
I'm a Python newbie, and I've already created 2 Django-based sites. I have created more than a dozen Drupal-based sites, and Django is easier and produces significantly faster sites.
Your need somewhat sits between two chairs : bespoke application and CMS-based. I'd advocate for the CMS approach, if and only if you feel the need for content structure customization will grow in the future, slowly removing the need for direct SQL queries.
I am biased since working with eZ Publish for many years now, but it satisfies the requirements you expressed natively :
Really good data entry (tracking changes, logging, ability to roll back, mass imports...)
[...] Image management support a small bonus.
An idea of the content edition feel can be watched here:
http://ez.no/Demos-Videos/eZ-Publish-Administration-Interface-Video-Tutorial
and you can download and test-drive eZ Publish Community Edition there : http://share.ez.no/latest
It is a PHP-based solution, strong professional community (http://share.ez.no), over 1100 add-ons available on http://projects.ez.no. The underlying libs are mostly relying on Apache Zeta Components, high-quality, robust set of PHP5 libraries.
Last note : the content model is abstracted, meaning you'd not have to create a new table everytime a new type of content should be stored : a simple content class definition from the administration interface, and the rest is taken care of, including the edition interface for the new content type. Might remove the need for hardcore SQL queries ?
Hope it helped,
Drupal can do most of what you need (I don't know of a module that will let you enter arbitrary SQL queries), but you will end up with some overhead of tables and modules you don't really need. It's up to you to decide if that's a problem or not. I don't think the overhead would hurt performance in your case.
The advantages of using Drupal would be the large community, the stability of the platform and the flexibility to add more functionality when needed. Also, the large user base ensures that most code has been tested rather well.
I highly recommend Drupal. It is very simple (also internally codebase is small and clean) it has dosens of possibilities and tremendous support. Once you start with Drupal you will never go to anything else.
Note that I'm not connected with Drupal staff, I've just created dosens of Drupas sites and many of them in just a minutes. My last one took me 2 hrs, see it here http://iPadDevZone.com
UPDATE #1:
It really depends on your DB schema complexity. The best case is that you just use CCK module (part of core now) and create your node type. Node is Drupal name for content. All you do is just web admin your node type fields (text, image, numbers, dates, custom, etc). Then, if user creates content with this node type he/she can enter all the fields which are stored in separate db table fields. This is however hidden for you - if you wish not to know about it - it is just a web gui. Then you choose how the node is presented, which properties as shown and where.
Watch videos in CCK resources section in the bottom of this page: http://drupal.org/project/cck
If you need to do some programming then it is also very easy to use so called PHP code sniplets which are entered as part of your content (node) and executed when the page is displayed.
Drupal has node revisions built in the core. You can see all the versions and roll back if you wish.
You can set the permissions in quite granular level so you can control what your users may or may not.
I would take a look at Symphony. I havn't been using it myself, but it seems like it's really easy to use and to customize!
http://symphony-cms.com/
Seems to me an online database system would be better than a CMS system.
So in addition to what's been posted above:
www.quickbase.com (by Intuit) - think around $150/mo
www.rollbase.com - check on price, full featured
www.rhythmdata.com - easy to set up, but don't think it's got the advanced features you're looking for.
Good luck!
B
I appreciate these answers, but most of them are really platforms that are much better at something else (eg, Drupal really is a CMS, and has some support for custom fields - but it's not at all easy). Since this is a brand new site from scratch, it doesn't really make sense to start with something that does custom database fields as an afterthought, I think.
The closest I've found is Zoho Creator. It really is like "MS Access for Web 2.0" - and even supports importing from Access. The pricing could get expensive though. It feels like it might eventually be quite constraining. I'm still evaluating.
Are there any other products like Zoho Creator?
I'm going to create a fairly large (from my point of view anyway) web project with a friend. We will create a site with roads and other road related info.
Our calculations is that we will have around 100k items in our database. Each item will contain some information like location, name etc. (about 30 thing each). We are counting on having a few hundred thousand unique visitors per month.
The 100k items and their locations (that will be searchable) will be the main part of the page but we will also have some articles, comments, news and later on some more social functions (accounts, forums, picture uploads etc.).
We were going to use Google AppEngine to develop our project since it is really scalable and free (at least for a while). But I'm actually starting to doubt that AppEngine is right for us. It seems to be for webbapps and not sites like ours.
Which system (language/framework etc.) would you guys recommend us to use? It doesn't really mater if we know the language since before (we like learning new stuff) but it would be good if it's something that is future proof.
I think that GAE can do the job. Google claims that Google App Engine is able to handle 5 million visitors for free and you will have to start paying only if you exceed their free quota.
It's also pretty easy to get started. If you don't have experience on administrating websites and choose a regular hosting service, you will have to worry about several things that you don't even imagine now.
My only concern would be with respect of the kind of data and queries you will have to do, since it does not have a relational database. Anyway, there is an open source project for GAE, called GeoModel that gives GAE the ability to do complex geo spacial queries, like proximity fetch. Have a look at their tutorial and the demo app.
About your impression that GAE was intended only for small web apps, there are a couple of CMS that run on it.
Good luck!
If once of your concerns is scalability, and you don't want to depend on expensive or commercial tools, I would recommend that you take a look at this tech stack:
Erlang - A programming language designed for concurrency and distribution.
Nitrogen - An Erlang web framework with a lot of cool stuff, like transparent AJAX.
NoSQL scalable databases, such as CouchDB or Riak - Save the the hassle of SQL code and are more scalable than plain MySQL. Both has direct native Erlang API.
To be honest, I don't know if this tool set is your cup of tea; These are not mainstream solutions. I just suggest these to everyone who ask about size-sensitive web applications.
All serious web frameworks will provide you with what you need. The real issues (for example scalability) might be tackled in a different way depending on what you use, but you wont be limited if you choose a well-known one. The choice of database system might be more important for that (sql vs nosql), even if both of those will do fine too.
It's all about
knowing how to use
enjoying to use
the tool(s) you've chosen.
In either case, name-dropping some suggestions:
Rails (Ruby)
Django (Python)
Nitrogen (Erlang)
ASP.NET MVC (C#)
And please note, if you really want to learn everything from the bottom, you'd be fine with any of these (or one of the other gazillion out there). But if you want to perform your best, choose one that supports a language you know well or uses techniques/tools you have experience of etc. Think twice about how you value this is fun and we learn a lot against we want to be productive and do a really good job.
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Is anyone out there* using web2py?
Specifically:
In production?
With what database?
With Google Application Engine?
by "out there" I mean at stackoverflow.
You are welcome to ask the same question on the google group. You will find more than 500 users there and some of them are development companies building projects for their clients.
My impression is that most of them use postgresql (that's what I do to) and some others use the Google App Engine. In fact web2py is the only framework that allows you to write code once and the same code will run on GAE, SQLite, MySQL, PostgreSQL, Oracle, MSSQL and FireBird (with the limitations imposed by GAE).
You can find the Reddish (reddit clone) appliance with source code for GAE here
Here you can find links to some productions app. Some are running on GAE.
#Armin:
Nothing is wrong with Django or Pylons. They are excellent frameworks. I have used them before developing web2py. There are a few things you can do with web2py that you cannot with them. For example:
web2py does distributed transactions with Postgresql, Armin requested this feature.
the Django ORM does not do migrations natively (see South), web2py does.
the Django ORM does not allow partial sums (count(field)) and group by, web2py does.
web2py can connect to multiple databases at once, Django and Pylons need to be hacked to do that, and
web2py has a configuration file at the app, not at the project level, like them.
webp2y logs all tracebacks server side for the administrator, Django and Pylons do not.
web2py programs often run on GAE unmodified.
web2py has built-in xmlrpc web services.
web2py comes with jQuery.
There are many things that web2py does better (using a more coherent API) and faster (processing templates and generating SQL for example). web2py is also very compact (all modules fit in 265K bytes) and therefore it is much easier to maintain than those competing projects.
You only have to learn Python and 81 new function/classes (50 of which have the same names and attributes as corresponding HTML tags, BR, DIV, SPAN, etc. and 19 are validators, IS_IN_SET, IS_INT_IN_RANGE, etc.).
Anyway, the most important issue is that web2py is easier than Django, Pylons, PHP and Rails.
You will also notice that web2py is hosted on both Google Code and Launchpad and there are not open tickets. All past issues have been resolved in less than 24 hours.
You can also check on the google mailing list that all threads (10056 messages today) ended up with an answer from me or one of the other developers within 24 hours.
You can find a book on web2py on Amazon.
Armin, I know you are the developer of Jinja. I like Jinja but have different design philosophies. Both Django and Jinja define their own template languages (and Jinja in particular has excellent documentation) but I do prefer to use pure Python in templates so that my users do no need to learn a template language at all. I am well aware of the pros and cons of each approach. Let's the users decide what they prefer. No need to criticize each other.
#Andre: db.table.field refers to the field object. 'table.field' is a field name. You can always pass a field object when a field name is required because str(db.table.field) is 'table.field'. The only case you are required to use a string instead of an object is when you need to reference by name a field that has not already been defined... perhaps we should move this discussion to the proper place. ;-)
I hope you will decide to give web2py a try and, whether you like it or not, I would love to hear your opinion.
I'm using web2py for a small web app. It's running the HITs on a Mechanical Turk project, and giving me an interface to control and visualize them. I started on Google App Engine, but then got sick of the little annoyances of not having direct database access and having to wait forever each time I want to upload my code, and moved to a local server with postgres. GAE makes most things harder in order to make a few scaling things easier... stay away from it unless you really need their scaling help.
I like web2py a lot. Compared to Django and Ruby on Rails, it's WAY easier to learn and get going. Everything is simple. You get stuff done fast. Massimo is everywhere solving your problems (even on this board haha).
I started using web2py about 6 month ago. I choose it, because I wanted to move from PHP to Python, to have a more object-oriented approch because of the language featrues of python.
The all-in-one approach of web2py is really amazing and makes the start very fast.
As a former symfony user I soon started to miss Components and Forms that aren't dependend on table structure.
Just with a simple registration form, I could not find a way to do the Form DRY. For me the real bugger was the form validation. I forgot the details, but I ended up with having form validation in the forms itself. Because some thing just didn't work else.
Also the naming concept of capitalised words with that lot of repeated chars is just not my thing.
dba.users.name.requires=IS_NOT_EMPTY()
dba.users.email.requires=[IS_EMAIL(), IS_NOT_IN_DB(dba,'users.email')]
dba.dogs.owner_id.requires=IS_IN_DB(dba,'users.id','users.name')
dba.dogs.name.requires=IS_NOT_EMPTY()
dba.dogs.type.requires=IS_IN_SET(['small','medium','large'])
dba.purchases.buyer_id.requires=IS_IN_DB(dba,'users.id','users.name')
dba.purchases.product_id.requires=IS_IN_DB(dba,'products.id','products.name')
dba.purchases.quantity.requires=IS_INT_IN_RANGE(0,10)
Sometimes the names have to be in quotes, sometimes not ... and if I looked at the examples or sites already made with web2py, I really didn't see that big step forward from using php.
I recommend you: Look if web2py works for you. It would be nice, because the community and especially massimo (the creator) are very helpful and nice.
Also you have a much quicker start, than with django, easier deployment and less hassle if you change your database models.
As Massimo points out above, the team at tenthrow uses web2py for tenthrow.com
We did most of our development work during 2009. Our stack uses cherokee, web2py, postgresql, and amazon s3. We had done many python web implementations prior to this on a variety of frameworks and backends. To say that we simply could not have done tenthrow so quickly and easily without web2py is an understatement. It's the best kept secret in web development.
I am evaluating web frameworks for a long time now. I wrote my own (not open) frameworks in Perl and in PHP. Well, PHP has a builtin deadend and the whole infrastructure is still quite poor, but I did not want to go back to Perl, so I checked Python and the Python Web Frameworks like Django, Turbogears, Pylon and web2py. There are many things to think about, if you want to choose a codestack that is not your own and you will often scratch your head because there is still no "right way" to program things. However, web2py is my current favourite, because the author, despite beeing a "real programmer", keeps things easy! Just look at the comparison on web2py site - I was wondering why python frameworks like django or turbogears had to introduce such redundance and complicated syntax in their code - web2py shows, that it IS in fact possible to keep your syntax clean and easy!
#Armin: could you please specify you criticism? Where exactly do you see web2py "bypassing Python semantics"? I can not understand, what you mean. I must admit that I am not that deep into python right now, but I see no problem with the web2py code - in fact, I think it is brilliant and one of the best frameworks available today.
I use web2py for academic purposes. About a year ago I published on pythonanywhere a digital text book for german grammar.
The resource requires authentication and looks like a little LMS with roles, activities and grades. It was my first experience of this kind. And it was a success because PHP was to difficult for me, and only web2py could provide a clear way to handle a database. With Python I could easily solve my problems as e. g. text analysis and downloading reports. As for database so SQLite was completely enough.
My students like the design and the way everything is functioning. So I am very satisfied with the results and going to develop other interesting applications for my university.
I think web2py is very good for applied linguists and L2 teachers, who are not as experienced in computer science as programmers. So that was my humble opinion.
There are some users listed here: http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/who.
I'm starting to use it with Postgresql. But a long way off production... I've also played with Zope V2 and Ruby on Rails and really love the approach of web2py.
I vote for Web2py. I only have time to develop small but useful stuff for my own use.
Hopefully next month I will have an oppty to create an app that is perfect for Web2py and run on Google app engine.
Web2py = breath of fresh air!
We are using it with our website that teachers Chinese, www.dominochinese.com. Our host is pythonanywhere.com and we love the simplicity of it. I work on building stuff instead of wishing I could get stuff working. I worked with django for 1.5 years and I hated it. In a sense I feel web2py is the PHP but in python. It makes people quickly do stuff without going into object oriented programming, which can be really confusing for beginners to intermediate programmers.
I am not using web2py. But I had a look at the source code and it's horrible for so many reasons. For one the database definitions as well as the views and models and I don't know what, are evaluated against a global dictionary of values. It feels like PHP in that regard (it's bypassing Python semantics in name behaviour) and is very inefficient and I could imagine that it's hard to maintain.
I have no idea where all that fuzz about web2py is coming from lately, but I really can't see a reason why anyone would want to use it.
What's wrong with Django or Pylons? What does web2py do that you can't do with Django in a few lines of code with a better performance, code that's easier to read and on an established platform where tons of developers will jump in and fix problems in no time if they appear. (Well, there are exceptions I must admit, but in general the developers fix problems quickly)
I am using web2py for 2 years, this web frameworks is great and unique. Easy to use, accept a lot of DB's but the best DB supported is postgres.
I have created 2 projects with web2py and a really like how easy it is. 1 project is a financial management and other a mail tracker, both in production systems (4 linux lpar with postgres) running fine.
web2py is a good choice
[small application created with web2py 2.5.1]
updated
http://freitasmgustavo.pythonanywhere.com/calculoST/
Actually it's using MySQL, but it could switch to postgresql at a moments notice as web2py is so diverse :)
I have been evaluating web frameworks for sometime now. I prefer web2py because it's easy to follow, compact yet powerful.
I like it because it is so tiny that I can easily distribute with my application.
We started to use Web2py 7 months ago. We already have one application in production in El Prado (National Museum in Spain). We developed a app to check and automate all the systems, to make servers statistics, access statistics, etc.
I use it in production on Google Appengine for www.crowdgrader.org.
I store data as follows:
The core metadata, where I need ACID, is stored in Google Cloud SQL, which is working very well for me. For big text fields, I store in Google Cloud SQL the key, and in the Datastore the key-value.
The text typed by users is stored in the Google Datastore, see above, with the key stored in Cloud SQL.
File uploads go in the blobstore.
I am slowly migrating more storage to the Datastore, to get more write bandwidth for things that do not require complex queries and can deal with a bit of eventual consistency.
I am very happy about web2py + appengine + Google Cloud SQL + Datastore + Blobstore.
I am using web2py in production with postgres on webfaction, and also on the GAE.
I used web2py for small projects so far, but I hope to introduce it in my company. It's my favorite web framework.
My blog is running on GAE with web2py.
I also have a facebook apps running on top of web2py: My Top 10 Gift
I use Web2py with Google App Engine in production. See https://www.nittiolearn.com.
For storing data, Google Datastore (accessed via web2py DAL) is used except for storing large resources where Google Cloud Storage is used. I have done multiple web2py version upgrades on the production environment in the last 5 years without any major issues.
Google app engine has also been mostly friction-free over the years.
But neither Web2py nor Google app engine has been adopted widely as I had thought 5-6 years ago. If I'm starting a new project, I'm unlikely to go with web2py or app engine as the number of developers who will be excited to work on these technologies is limited.
I am using web2py with gae and google datastore in production of custom application , it is a very good framework.
I did made some minor fixes for work good on GAE, work fast and stable, i have published the Web2Py version changes uses on my github soyharso.
The uploads to GAE are fast, the version control app engine is secure, the free tier offer google for tuning your code is excellent, the monthly cost is adequate
Well, I am using Web2Py professionally, with PostgreSQL, and on linux. I am working on my Social network named "Ourway". You may like some features of it like "Blog" part.
http://www.noobmusic.com is using the Google App Engine.
I am using web2py in production. Currently while in early production we are developing with SQLite because it is easy and it comes out of the box but later we will probably switch to MySQL. I don' think there are any plans to use Google App Engine.
This are quite old responses but I will chip in anyway. In the year 2008 maybe it was excellent choice, as well as Django/Flask. And it still might be good.
But this days people want instant results, with a way less learning curve.
The web2py is not that intuitive to be fair.
Do I need to study MVC concepts for working with MS Access? I could not care less for URL routing, just need to display a few tables on the web, preferably with some validation. Plus some authentication.
This is where framework like http://jam-py.com/ shines! Not only that you wont be lost, but it does remind of Access which ruled the offices for like decades. And still rules in 2019. Why? Almost no learning curve.