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Good day,
I have a question for the experienced developers:
At the moment I work a lot with the PHP framework Symfony.
Out of interest, I would now like to delve into the topic of native app development
using React.
As part of a practice project, I want to transfer/sync data between a SQL DB on a server and the app.
My question is, is it a good way to write a symfony application for this,
which only acts as an API for the database?
Does this make sense from a performance and effort point of view?
What alternative ways are there?
Which ways of storing data on servers are used most frequently in the productive environment?
I am happy about suggestions, links and informations in every direction.
Thanks and Greetings
My answers (based on my experiences and my collegues answers) :
As you can see on the documentation here it's very easy to made your own api with Symfony tkants to API Platform. For the performance it's very acceptable especially if you use Symfony (>= 5.4) because a lot of cleaning has been done in the kernel and PHP 8 for its performance improvements especially at compile time (JIT compiletor). More info here if you need it.
Alternatively you can create your API rest with NodeJS but it doesn't bring much especially if your application is already made in PHP. Adding a layer can sometimes make things heavier instead of lighter.
It's depend of your need, the size, the number of users ... You have to determine the target to choose the better solution. If you have it already I can help you.
I'm about to start developing a simple reporting tool for tasks in international projects. In a nutshell: using the tool, a project is created, defining team members, tasks, and work packages. Team members will be asked to periodically submit reports on the work they've done (related to tasks and/or work packages). These reports will be stored and accessed trough the tool.
I'll use Google App Engine (client requirement) and its datastore (using JDO). But I want to ask you for advice on the frontend part: JSP looks pretty messy for non Java developers... any other idea???
Thanks!!!
Seems like at the moment it's either java or python. However, you may want to look at Grails. GSPs might looks a little less 'messy'. I'm suggesting Grails based on your description of the project, that I suspect will turn out anything but simple later on. You might end up being glad for the mix of constraints and flexibility that Grails will afford.
JSP doesn't need to be any messier than other similar HTML presentation frameworks, it really comes down to implementation. That being said, it is old Java technology which means it's not being kept up to date, and finding a good single source of documentation is difficult.
If you don't want to use JSP, there are other frameworks you can use, you just need to make sure they're compatible with Google App Engine.
The new kid on the block is the Play framework, and that's a Java MVC framework similar to Ruby on Rails. You can find a tutorial here: http://viralpatel.net/blogs/first-play-framework-gae-siena-application-tutorial-example/
If you're going to use Spring, check out this question: Alternatives to JSP for Spring MVC view layer
For a front end developer, if the code is separated correctly, you won't have to know anything about Java since there shouldn't be any Java mixed in with the HTML. If that's your only worry, then I would just go with JSP to keep things simple unless the team has experience with another technology.
I've used CakePHP on several projects in the past, and have more recently started using Ruby on Rails, but there's a new project I'm about to start that will require PHP. While refreshing myself on CakePHP I learned that there is a new framework called Lithium that is essentially what CakePHP 3 was going to be. It's being developed by a group of former core CakePHP devs.
I haven't found a whole lot of information about it since it's still under development status, but I was wondering if anyone knows (or has a link to) some information on what benefits it provides over CakePHP. Hopefully something a bit beyond the quick overview shown on the official site. I'm trying to decide whether to use CakePHP for my upcoming PHP project or to wait a bit for Lithium to release a non-development version and try that out.
Hope this answer doesn't come too late, (and as the lead developer of Lithium, I'm a little biased :-)), but I will say that this is a hard thing to sum up. Lithium is the culmination of over 4 years' experience building and working with CakePHP, and while it retains many of the same designs and conventions, it was built to correct CakePHP's many architectural flaws.
In brief:
Framework features are grouped into loosely-coupled "packages" that are easy to use independently.
Tangentially, everything in Lithium is a "library", including your application, and Lithium itself. Support for integrating 3rd-party libraries is vastly improved, and all classes are namespaced, so you can finally have a model called File.
It is very easy to swap out core classes with your own custom implementations.
Lithium has a unique "filter" system that allows you to hook into many methods in the framework, which allows you to design your applications in an aspect-oriented fashion. These features work together to make Lithium the most flexible PHP framework, bar none.
Everything is lazy-loaded, and the architecture has been designed for maximum performance.
Lithium supports the latest tech, especially new databases like CouchDB and MongoDB.
I could go on for a while, but that's the gist of it. If you have any more questions, feel free to drop by #li3 on Freenode, and someone will happily give you a tour.
There is very little documentation so far. Here are some brand-new slides from gwoo though, that might be a good overview:
http://www.slideshare.net/gwoo/li3-ocphp
See the Lithium about page in their wiki. It lists all the features it will provide.
http://rad-dev.org/lithium/wiki/about
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What is conceptually the difference between symfony and cakephp?
Just to balance out this thread, this is why I like symfony:
uses PHP5
it runs some really big sites like Yahoo! Answers, delicious, and Daily Motion.
good documentation. the jobeet tutorial on the website is awesome. walks you straight through all of the features, and after you are done you feel like you can build anything.
is highly modular; many of the symfony components work on their own.
allows you to choose either Propel or Doctrine as your ORM. Doctrine is really great and easy to use.
you can define your models with YAML or in PHP, its up to you. Some people don't like configuration files, and you can really limit their use if you want to steer clear of YAML.
the updated symfony cli (as of 1.2) is awesome. I agree with abales, before this version it was a little wonky, but now it is very well documented and follows a predictable format.
there are a lot, and i mean a lot, of similarities with ruby on rails, except that of course PHP isn't quite as pretty or flexible as Ruby(!). But, if you talk to a cake developer, they will probably say the opposite :)
the symfony admin generator, which is a step up from CRUD (which also exists in symfony), is a huge time saver. Using your data model it will generate customizable admin interfaces complete with list views (index), create, and edit pages. It's not like basic crud where it generates the source and you go in and modify it... You actually can define how each field looks, which fields you want to include, what additional actions you can perform on each object, and so on.
Conceptually, I'd say the difference is this:
CakePHP has a smaller learning curve. If you have never used a MVC framework, Cake will be easier to pick up and run with in a short amount of time.
Symfony feels bit "bigger," not to say that it is slow, but that there is a lot of code back there that will let you do a lot of really advanced things when you need to.
The best advice I can give is to quickly try to set up a your own simple data model in both, and experiment with some basic interfaces, and just see which fits your own coding style the best. I think both frameworks have very active and passionate user communities and you won't regret your decision either way.
CakePHP philosophy is similar to Ruby on Rails.
CakePHP is better for medium projects.
CakePHP is faster to learn.
CakePHP is lighter than symfony.
CakePHP's Database Interaction uses CRUD.
CakePHP uses the test system PHPUnit.
Is interesting in CakePHP Bake and scaffolding.
Symfony's philosophy is each version is different.
Symfony's is slower to learn.
Symfony's is best for large projects.
Symfony's Database Interaction uses Doctrine.
Symfony's uses the test system PHPUnit.
Is interesting in Symfony's Bundles and templates.
A big difference is in how models are created: CakePHP models are written in PHP, and Symfony models are written in YAML and powered by Propel. CakePHP's approach is more similar to ROR's ActiveRecord (although it isn't exactly an AR implementation). CakePHP, in general, is more rails-esque.
CakePHP's documentation and tools, in my opinion, have a wider target audience and the syntax and helpers are easier, but thy have yet to embrace PHP5 as their exclusive target (to autoloading isn't really there). In general, I prefer CakePHP's approach because it sort of follows an established standard, and I applaude it's organization. I'd also recommend Kohana for it's PHP5 goodness.
There's another post on stack overflow about this question, although its a bit different in focus.
Edit: I revisted Symfony to find the reasons I said 'no' and came up with these — your opinions and mileage may vary:
CakePHP also offers dead simple scaffolding and easy to understand CLI tools. Symfony's CLI syntax is a bit wonky to me, and 'CRUD' in Symfony just isn't the same. Combine that with Symfony's (awkard) action syntax and throw in Symfony's poorly designed (and challenging to understand) website, and preference for 3rd-party paid documentation (books on Amazon) and you have more ticks in the cons column.
Some of the claims about CakePHP and limitations above simply isn't true. The query is possible. You just have to know how to make it. The "automagic" of CakePHP is SUPER nice so you can hit the ground running FAST. It is BY FAR the FASTEST framework to development (hence why it's so closely modelled after RoR which obviously was a big success and buzz). There are more advanced behaviors to get data returned differently and make some of those more complex queries with a few short method calls and array parameters specified.
However. As far as I can tell, no other framework has as many "automagic" methods and classes. Cake takes the most common of tasks and provides an easy way to get it done. If you're really clever, you'll do most of your coding at the model level and make use of the app_model and app_controller file and have an extremely efficient application.
The console is great and always expanding. The community is truly amazing and there are many many contributions to help you get things rolling even faster. You can literally architect and then move "pieces" into place to build an app very quickly because most of what you'll need is available. You do not get that with any other framework. You have to spend a LOT more time coding usually.
Lastly. While the documentation was lagging, it is much better now and while Cake also got some harsh reviews during this lack of documentation and version 1.1 period...It was STILL good, just severely overlooked. With 1.2 and now Cake2 and Cake3 on the horizon...You're going to see a lot of opinions changing.
I have used CakePHP since 1.1. I'm a firm believer in it. I have used it for huge corporate sites. That receive millions and millions of hits per day...We're out of the realm of things like WordPress and Drupal for solutions. When you get to that level for a CMS type site, I am super glad to have CakePHP on it. Likewise, Symfony and CodeIgniter will help you with the scaling. I can't say anything bad about either of those frameworks either. I can only say that you will spend less time coding and find a larger community (and a super friendly IRC channel) with CakePHP.
I'm going through and documenting some of my responses to the above comments about CakePHP and some of it's (in some cases rightly) perceived faults.
Big websites are run using CakePHP, some being Mozilla Addons, Scratch by MIT, and Hot Scripts. There is a bigger list right at the bottom of the CakePHP website (http://cakephp.org). Regardless, any good developer should be able to build a scalable website using a framework as long as the framework isn't completely silly (CakePHP isn't too silly :D ).
It is true that there isn't one very good (free) CakePHP tutorial that goes through every feature of the framework, but the documentation is extremely well laid out and verbose. Anything that isn't clear can be cleared up through the Google Group and on IRC, and we welcome any and all changes/corrections to the documentation. Documentation is not just a core developer issue, as many things are application specific and people come up with interesting tips and tricks, and so thusly everyone is invited to contribute (Not just comment!). Of course it is all moderated, so most of the cruft/spam is not added.
The code is modular in that you can add in new code that supercedes core functionality. Much of the code is simply PHP classes. It is true that writing such functionality may be a burden, and I have not tried using alternate classes as fillins. Yes, it does not handle other ORMs, so you are stuck with the default, but this should be fixed in Cake3, which will be able to mix and match any other PHP classes at will (that includes Propel and Doctrine support).
The CLI is very good, and it is easy to extend for App-specific support. One example is that I recently developed a shell plugin that would automatically install any other CakePHP plugin that I have indexed from github. Took about 5 hours to build something extremely usable and flexible. I'm sure such functionality exists for Symfony, and it DOES exist for RoR :)
As for being Rails-like, it is and it isn't. Many things are similar, they are MVC frameworks after all, and CakePHP goes for the "Conventions vs Configuration" approach. PHP4 support mucks with a nicer syntax, which Symfony doubtless has because of PHP5-only support, but it is still extremely usable and intuitive. The framework does not provide EVERY feature of Rails out of the box as it isn't a straight clone. CakePHP is a framework, not a library (hi Zend), so it won't provide everything out of the box.
Generation of views is, I agree, a bit wonky in CakePHP. It is being greatly enhanced in CakePHP 1.3 and 2.0. It will support custom templates for each and every Model, View and Controller (as opposed to just a type of view as it does now). Also, there exists a set of shell tasks on github by a user going by neilcrookes that auto-bakes only certain types of views (including only admin views) which can be used in combination with custom templates to produce exactly what you want. CSS styling also helps :) but this is definitely something that can be improved.
CakePHP takes many varied parameters in it's Model::find methods, although in certain cases it may be useful to use raw SQL queries. The Model::find() method is very flexible and has not failed me insofar as creating complex finds. I suppose that is related to being comfortable with the ORM, which inevitably always takes time.
Form validation should logically be in the model layer, as that is where any action related to the database is being performed. You can specify alternate validation in a specific view I believe, or swap validations (there is a behavior for this but it wouldn't be hard to do so without it).
Multidimensional arrays are a bit silly, but you'd still likely have multidimensional objects. PHP4 had a broken Object Model and so that is why CakePHP does not use objects. This is being corrected in a future version of CakePHP (as I pointed out above in a previous comment), but it is useful to have a framework that supports PHP4 in some cases. Again, YMMV and I agree that full PHP5 will be a great boon, both in speed of the application and of development.
Databases can be swapped out at will. CakePHP does not allow functionality that is inherent in only one type of DB (hence the dropped support of ENUMs that are only in MySQL), so that the ORM is always supported and can always build valid queries. You can have multiple databases in an application, one per each Model if you wanted, and can swap them at will or even not use a database at all for a specific model. So no, it is not tied to a specific database.
In the end, your choice is your own, and I wholeheartedly suggest looking into both and reading through the documentation, checking out the Groups, IRC channels, blogs and any forums for both and seeing which framework suits your development style the best. Reader beware, I'm a CakePHP developer so my post has some bias.
Further to the existing answers, you should try both if possible. I use both quite a bit, and over some time, have come to prefer symfony.
but I'm fairly convinced that its not because one or other is better, but because symfony happens to suit the way my mind works better, its closer to what I do when I write software outside a framework, so feels more intuitive. I expect that others may find their mind fits the paradigm of another framework.
Having said that, I do think that cakephp's objects are a weakness, through the use of arrays rather than objects. (This is something that periodically develops into an intense hatred inside me whenever I need to do something that it makes hard ... ! ) They could do exactly the same, but return objects rather than arrays to represent data, and I think most of the issues I have would go away - you'd be able to add extra functionality into the data objects to achieve the things I want to do, rather than writing functions in the existing model class and passing them an array.
The model layer of CakePHP is a mess. Try doing simple things like a many-to-many relationship between a Category and an Item object and then retrieve all the Items in a Category that have a specific property set.
Like:
SELECT items.* FROM items, categories, item_categories WHERE item.available=1 AND category.id=1 AND item_categories.category_id = category.id
Something so trivial is not possible in one statement in cake with the find() method of a model.
There is also no way in the core API to add a single many-to-many relationship as in one item to the item_category table above. There are a couple solutions online including a behavior that someone posted in the bakery (http://bakery.cakephp.org/articles/view/add-delete-habtm-behavior), but that's just stuff that any good ORM framework like Propel, Torque(Java), Hibernate(Java), SQLObject(Python), SQLAlchemy(Python) support right out of the box. Basically you're either going to have to write a lot of PHP code to add those missing features or use raw SQL queries but the main purpose of a framework is to avoid doing those things so that you can focus on the application that you're writing so you're not really gaining much with CakePHP.
There are a bunch of other problems and they all really have to do with the model layer including the form validation being tied into the model layer, having to deal with messy multidimensional arrays, having to use raw sql and tying your app to a specific database.
I would say use symfony. It's a bigger framework might take a few days longer to learn but it will be well worth it. I was going to use CakePHP for a project that I am working on, after running to too many of those types of issues I switched to symfony and it's been smooth sailing.
One difference more is: Symfony separated to 3 environments: Development, Production and Testing - CakePHP can not!
It's easy to develop and test product at same time
Cake 2.0 nicely autoloads most of the classes you need, whereas I found in Symfony 2 that every class had to have numerous imports at the top of the script. Attempting to memorize all those imports is near-impossible, so you always need a reference handy.
eg. Symfony 2 controller code...
namespace Acme\HelloBundle\Controller;
use Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\Response;
// bunch of other imports accumulate here...
class HelloController {
...
Argh, yuck. While that may be good OO technique for the purists, it lengthens development time (bye bye RAD). At least with Cake I can code most of the simple stuff quickly from memory now.
I just know pure PHP, never worked with a framework before, but my boss wants me to create our next project, which will be a lot bigger than everything we did before (means bigger than a page that needs only 5 scripts to work, more like 100 or something like that).
But I'm not sure if I can realise it with pure PHP, now I heard that CakePHP could be helpful for that (structure etc.).
Should I learn this or just use my pure PHP way?
As noted, your definition of the scope and complexity of this project is a little vague, but I'll respond with the general observation that larger projects benefit from more "top-down" structure than smaller ones. I suspect that pretty much every PHP developer on the planet started by hacking straight into index.php, then wrote some code for guestbook.php, and so on. Then you realise how much you're repeating yourself and start refactoring to classes and libraries.
Frameworks are the natural next step up from that. The term covers quite a range of products; some that tie you very closely to a specific way of working, and some that are more a library with some loose front control.
I'd advise you to choose a loose MVC framework, which gives you a good structure to work within, but doesn't overly constrain you, and should allow you to use existing libraries. I've not used CakePHP - my experience is with Zend Framework, which I like a lot (not that it's flawless). However, I have worked with another developer to compare the functionality of Cake and ZF, and from what I've seen Cake has many of the strong points that ZF displays. In fact, in many places it almost seems you could convert code from one to another by changing a few classnames.
I suspect Cake's not a bad choice at all, but I can't recommend it as I don't know enough about it. ZF I do know, pretty well now, so I can recommend it - and the docs are now pretty good.
Before you dive into either Cake or ZF, you'll need some understanding of the MVC design pattern. Jason Sweat's book is a good, if slightly dated introduction, and the ZF manual is also pretty strong.
By the way, it's not a choice between "Cake and Pure PHP". Cake (and ZF) are both "Pure PHP". The difference is between "PHP I wrote", and "PHP someone else wrote" (so I didn't have to). From this, the important bit is that you trust the quality of that "someone else's code", which in this case you'll have to do by recommendation and reputation.
But don't just go asking "What's the best PHP framework?" - that's like asking for the best text editor ;) And I'm sure this response (or question) will get tagged 'subjective' in mere moments.
I've been using Cake for a couple of years. I'd say if you haven't used any MVC framework before, you should definitely learn one to expand your horizon.
It's not really about using the framework for your convenience. It's about seeing how things are done in the framework-land. You'd really gain some insights that you can carry over even if you later decide not to use a framework.
Your description of the project didn't sound too huge. However, learning an MVC framework is some serious learning curve there. Basically you'll feel like you're learning a whole new programming language. So for your situation if you really do decide to try a framework, you might want to factor that in your schedule.
To get you started, I personally think CakePHP has a more elegant solution and has tighter design philosophies. CodeIgniter, on the other hand, seems more natural to "pure PHP-ist" because it's less abstract so it might be easier to pick up.
To answer the titled question though, I'd think any huge project should roll their own from the start instead of using a framework. The whole point of using a framework is because you want to leverage some of the stuffs they have built in for you. But for really huge projects, many of the parts should be customized anyway, so you might found yourself restricted by the framework more than leveraging it.
But then again, I really don't think your project (by your description) is anything near huge. As a ballpark estimate I'd say any project under 50k - 100k hits a day can safely benefit from using a framework.
I do not say CakePHP. But any framework will do. The major benifit will be you will get a default folder structure, skin, language framework (oscommerce etc. do). You will be customizing this framework. Most features will/may there be by default, like email sending, page creation, Menu generation etc.
You did not say what kind of application you plan (may be because of NDA). More details, more accurate answers.
I agree that it shouldn't be a decision whether to use CakePHP, but whether to use a framework at all. There are a multitude of PHP frameworks out there (Cake, Symfony, Codeigniter, Zend, etc.) and each has it's advantages and disadvantages.
If it was me, I'd use a framework just to strictly enforce some MVC rules... with a large project, keeping things structured helps down the road when someone else inherits the system.
The key here, is don't get lulled in by the "code generation" aspects. If you don't know the framework (or don't know the language as well as you could) down the road, the code generation could be more of a headache than it's worth.
Using a PHP framework like cakephp will reduce the amount of code you need to write. In cakephp there are many things that will save time like using elements to display snippets of code that you use often. If the project is really big, it will help tremendously because your code will be shorter and much more clean and organized. It will be much more easy to maintain as well.
I think that pure php would be the best option because if you use a framework you are restricted to their boundaries,
whereas without framework you are free to design anything, if you think that you have the best capability of solving problems and making algorithms then you must go with php not any kind of framework
and if you just want work to be done then you must go with framework i haven't worked on framework by have some knowledge of cake php i didn't liked it as i think i am tied with some rules, i prefer writing my own code and in case you want to do less work in future just write you own rules (its like making your own framework) just save every thing you created in small files and then use them in you other project just like one of the benefit of OOP(Object Oriented Programing)
If you know PHP, you'll learn more about how to implement common design patters if you start reading other peoples code. The more you read, the more you'll get perspective on what good code looks like, and what bad code looks like.
It is tempting to "code-your-own" because you will understand it more fully, but remember, you're not going to be the only one working on this, and one day, you might actually want to work on something else, and having a system which is widely implemented and understood can make it easier to move on.
As far as whether cakePHP a good choice for your particular project, it's hard to say without knowing more than it's going to be "bigger".
Everything depends on the project and the project stake holder. If there is going to be a lot of modification, either during development or after the project goes live, a framework can be pretty limiting to someone without a strong grasp of the theories behind the framework (not a judgement on the programmer, just a statement.)