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I know about the existance of question such as this one and this one. Let me explain.
Afet reading Joel's article Back to Basics and seeing many similar questions on SO, I've begun to wonder what are specific examples of situations where knowing stuff like C can make you a better high level programmer.
What I want to know is if there are many examples of this. Many times, the answer to this question is something like "Knowing C gives you a better feel of what's happening under the covers" or "You need a solid foundation for your program", and these answers don't have much meaning. I want to understand the different specific ways in which you will benefit from knowing low level concepts,
Joel gave a couple of examples: Binary databases vs XML, and strings. But two examples don't really justify learning C and/or Assembly. So my question is this: What specific examples are there of knowing C making you a better high level programmer?
My experience with teaching students and working with people who only studied high-level languages is that they tend to think at a certain high level of abstraction, and they assume that "everything comes for free". They can become very competent programmers, but eventually they have to deal with some code that has performance issues and then it comes to bite them.
When you work a lot with C, you do think about memory allocation. You often think about memory layout (and cache locality if that's an issue). You understand how and why certain graphics operations just cost a lot. How efficient or inefficient certain socket behaviors are. How buffers work, etc. I feel that using the abstractions in a higher level language when you do know how it is implemented below the covers sometimes gives you "that extra secret sauce" when thinking about performance.
For example, Java has a garbage collector and you can't directly assign things to memory directly. And yet, you can make certain design choices (e.g., with custom data structures) that affect performance because of the same reasons this would be an issue in C.
Also, and more generally, I feel that it is important for a power programmer to not only know big-O notation (which most schools teach), but that in real-life applications the constant is also important (which schools try to ignore). My anecdotal experience is that people with skills in both language levels tend to have a better understanding of the constant, perhaps because of what I described above.
In addition, many higher level systems that I have seen interface with lower level libraries and infrastructures. For instance, some communications, databases or graphics libraries. Some drivers for certain devices, etc. If you are a power programmer, you may eventially have to venture out there and it helps to at least have an idea of what is going on.
Knowing low level stuff can help a lot.
To become a racing driver, you have to learn and understand the basic physics of how tyres grip the road. Anyone can learn to drive pretty fast, but you need a good understanding of the "low level" stuff (forces and friction, racing lines, fine throttle and brake control, etc) to get those last few percent of performance that will allow you to win the race.
For example, if you understand how the CPU architecture works in your computer, you can write code that works better with it (e.g. if you know you have a certain CPU cache size or a certain number of bytes in each CPU cache line, you can arrange your data structures and the way that you access them to make the best use of the cache - for example, processing many elements of an array in order is often faster than processing random elements, due to the CPU cache). If you have a multi-core computer, then understanding how low level techniques like threading work can gave huge benefits (just as not understanding the low level can lead to disaster in threading).
If you understand how Disk I/O and caching works, you can modify file operations to work well with it (e.g. if you read from one file and write to another, working on large batches of data in RAM can help reduce I/O contention between the reading and writing phases of your code, and vastly improve throughput)
If you understand how virtual functions work, you can design high-level code that uses virtual functions well. If used incorrectly they can severely hamper performance.
If you understand how drawing is handled, you can use clever tricks to improve drawing speed. e.g. You can draw a chessboard by alternately drawing 64 white and black squares. But it is often faster to draw 32 white sqares and then 32 black ones (because you only have to change the drawing colour twice instead of 64 times). But you can actually draw the whole board black, then XOR 4 stripes across the board and 4 stripes down the board in white, and this can be much faster still (2 colour changes, and only 9 rectangles to draw instead of 64). This chessboard trick teaches you a very important programming skill: Lateral thinking. By designing your algorithm well, you can often make a big difference to how well your program operates.
Understanding C, or for that matter, any low level programming language, gives you an opportunity to understand things like memory usage (i.e. why is it a bad thing to create several million heavy objects), how pointers/object references work, etc.
The problem is that as we've created ever increasing levels of abstraction, we find ourselves doing a lot of 'lego block' programming, without understanding how the legos actually function. And by having almost infinite resources, we start treating memory and resources like water, and tend to solve problems by throwing more iron at the situation.
While not limited to C, there's a tremendous benefit to working at a low level with much smaller, memory constrained systems like the Arduino or old-school 8-bit processors. It lets you experience close to the metal coding in a much more approachable package, and after spending time squeezing apps into 512K, you will find yourself applying these skills at a larger level within your day to day programming.
So the language itself is not important, but having a deeper appreciation for how all of the bits come together, and how to work effectively at a level closer to the hardware is a set of skills beneficial to any software developer.
For one, knowing C helps you understand how memory works in the OS and in other high level languages. When your C# or Java program balloons on memory usage, understanding that references (which are basically just pointers) take memory too, and understand how many of the data structures are implemented (which you get from making your own in C) helps you understand that your dictionary is reserving huge amounts of memory that aren't actually used.
For another, knowing C can help you understand how to make use of lower level operating system features. You don't need this often, but sometimes you may need memory mapped files, or to use marshalling in C#, and C will greatly help understand what you're doing when that happens.
I think C has also helped my understanding of network protocols, but I can't put my finger on specific examples. I was reading another SO question the other day where someone was complaining about how C's bit-fields are 'basically useless' and I was thinking how elegantly C bit fields represent low-level network protocols. High level languages dealing with structures of bits always end up a mess!
In general, the more you know, the better programmer you will be.
However, sometimes knowing another language, such as C, can make you do the wrong thing, because there might be an assumption that is not true in a higher-level language (such as Python, or PHP). For example, one might assume that finding the length of a list might be O(N) where N is the length of the list. However, this is probably not the case in many high-level language instances. In Python, for most list-like things the cost is O(1).
Knowing more about the specifics of a language will help, but knowing more in general might lead one to make incorrect assumptions.
Just "knowing" C would not make you better.
But, if you understand the whole thing, how native binaries work, how does CPU work with it, what are architecture limitations, you may write a code which is easier for CPU.
For example, how L1/L2 caches affect your work, and how should you write your code to have more hits in L1/L2 caches. When working with C/C++ and doing heavy optimizations, you will have to go down to that kind of things.
It isn't so much knowing C as it is that C is closer to the bare metal than many other languages. You need to be more aware of how to allocate/deallocate memory because you have to do it yourself. Doing it yourself helps you understand the implications of many decisions that you make.
To me any language is acceptable as long as you understand how the compiler/interpreter (basically) maps your code onto the machine. It's a bit easier to do in a language that exposes this directly, but you should be able to, with a bit of reading, figure out how memory is allocated and organized, what sort of indexing patterns are more optimal than others, what constructs are more efficient for particular applications, etc.
More important, I think, is a good understanding of operating systems, memory architectures, and algorithms. If you understand how your algorithm works, why it would be better to choose one algorithm or data structure over another (e.g., HashSet vs. List), and how your code maps onto the machine, it shouldn't matter what language you are using.
This is my experience of how I learnt and taught myself programming, specifically, understanding C, this is going back to early 1990's so may be a bit antique, but the passion and the drive is important:
Learn to understand the low level principles of the computer, such as EGA/VGA programming, here's a link to the Simtel archive on the C programmer's guide to the PC.
Understanding how TSR's work
Download the whole archive of Bob Stout's snippets which is a big collection of C code that does one thing only - study them and understand it, not alone that, the collection of snippets strives to be portable.
Browse at the International Obfuscated C Code Contest (IOCCC) online, and see how the C code can be abused and understand the intracies of the language. The worst code abuse is the winner! Download the archives and study them.
Like myself, I loved the infamous Ponzo's C Tutorial which helped me immensely, unfortunately, the archive is very hard to find. If anyone knows of where to obtain them, please leave a comment and I will amend this answer to include the link. There is another one that I can remember - Coronado's [Generic?] C Tutorial, again, my memory on this one is hazy...
Look at Dr. Dobb's journal and C User Journal here - I do not know if you can still get them in print but they were a classic, can remember the feeling of holding a printed copy in my hand and tearing off home to type in the code to see what happens!
Grab an ancient copy of Turbo C v2 which I believe you can get from borland.com and just play with 16bit C programming to get a feel and mess with the pointers...sure it is ancient and old but playing with pointers on it is fine.
Understand and learn Pointers, link here to the legacy Simtel.net - a crucial link to achieving C Guru'ship for want of a better word, also you will find a host of downloads pertaining to the C programming language - I remember actually ordering the Simtel CD Archive and looking for the C stuff...
A couple of things that you have to deal directly with in C that other languages abstract away from you include explicit memory management (malloc) and dealing directly with pointers.
My girlfriend is one semester from graduating MIT (where they mainly use Java, Scheme, and Python) with a Computer Science degree, and she is currently working at a company whose codebase is in C++. For the first few days she had a difficult time understanding all the pointers/references/etc.
On the other hand, I found moving from C++ to Java very easy, because I was never confused about pass-references-by-value vs pass-by-reference.
Similarly, in C/C++ it is much more apparent that primitives are just the compiler treating the same sets of bits in different ways, as opposed to a language like Python or Ruby where everything is an object with its own distinct properties.
A simple (not entirely realistic) example to illustrate some of the advice above. Consider the seemingly harmless
while(true)
for(Iterator iter = foo.iterator(); iter.hasNext();)
bar.doSomething( iter.next() )
or the even higher level
while(true)
for(Baz b: foo)
bar.doSomething(b)
A possible problem here is that each time round the while loop a new object (the iterator) is created. If all you care about is programmer convenience, then the latter is definitely better. But if the loop has to be efficient or the machine is resource constrained then you are pretty much at the mercy of the designers of your high level language.
For example, a typical complaint for doing high-performance Java is having execution stop while garbage (such as all those allocated Iterator objects) is reclaimed. Not very good if your software is charged with tracking incoming missiles, auto-piloting a passenger jet, or just not leaving the user wondering why the GUI has stopped responding.
One possible solution (still in the higher-level language) would be to weaken the convenience of the iterator to something like
Iterator iter = new Iterator();
while(true)
for(foo.initAlreadyAllocatedIterator(iter); iter.hasNext();)
bar.doSomething(iter.next())
But this would only make sense if you had some idea about memory allocation...otherwise it just looks like a nasty API. Convenience always costs somewhere, and knowing lower-level stuff can help you identify and mitigate those costs.
I would like to know what projects cannot be done in C.
I know programming can be quicker and more intuitive in
other languages. But I would like to know what features
are missing in C that would prevent a project from being
completed well.
For example, very few web-frameworks exist in C.
C, like many other languages, is Turing Complete.
So simple answer is: none.
However, C++ Template Meta Programming meets the same criterion, so "it is possible" is not a good criterion to choose tools.
The very first C compiler?
A working solution to the halting problem
Alright, here's one: you cannot write an x86 boot sector in C. This is one of those things that has to be written in ASM.
There are none.
Different languages give you different ways to say things. For some classes of problems a given language may be more expressive and/or concise. Are there projects that you should pick something aside from C? Yes, of course. But to say you can't do it well in C is misleading. It would be better to ask which language is the best choice for the problem at hand, and are the gains worth using something unfamiliar?
Anything can be done in virtually any language.
That said there is a level of practicality. As your system's complexity increases, you need better tools to manage it.
The problems are still solvable, but you start to need more people and much more effort in design. I'm not saying other languages don't benefit from design, I'm saying that the same level and attention to detail may not be required.
Since we programmers are Human (I am at least) we have troubles in one area or another. My biggest is memory. If I can visualize my code as objects, manipulating large modules in my head becomes easier, and my brain can handle larger projects.
Of course, it's even possible to write good OO code in C, the patterns were developed in C by manually managing dispatch tables (tables of pointers with some pointers updated to point to different methods), and this is true of all programming constructs from higher languages--they can be done in any language, but...
If you were to implement objects in C, every single class you wrote would have a large amount of boilerplate overhead. If you made some form of exception handling, you would expose more boilerplate.
Higher level languages abstract this boilerplate out of your code and into the system, simplifying what you have to think about and debug (a dispatch table in C could take a lot of debugging, but in C++ it isn't going to fail because the code generated by a working compiler is going to be bug-free and hidden, you never see it).
I guess I'd say that's the biggest (only?) difference between low level and higher level languages, how much boilerplate do you hide. In the latest batch of dynamic languages, they are really into hiding loop constructs within the language, so more things look like:
directory.forEachFile(print file.name); // Not any real language
In C, even if you isolated part of the looping inside a function, setting up the function pointers and stuff would still take lines of un-obvious code that is not solving part of your primary problem.
There is not a single algorithm that cannot be written with C.
Depends on how much you want to invest (time/money/energy) to make it happen. Otherwise, I'd say there aren't any. It is just easier sometimes to use something else.
OS kernel has been written in C and everything runs over it so you can write everything in C.
Boot sector that needs ASM :-) , I don't think you meant that.
I am an electronics student and I have programmed mostly in Assembly. Last night I saw an amazing article that discussed writing a compiler in Ruby. What the author had done was use GCC to peek how the C translates to Assembly. That resonated a lot for me. I could finally see how the C program translated to Assembly.My question/request to the community here is: Could you show me resources that discusses the link between those two better? Should I be reading about compilers? Should I be learning System programming? I dont know what to do. I really want to be better at programming and learn this better. Thank you for your help.
Related:
Learning to write a compiler
Is it beneficial for a programmer to learn how to build a compiler?
Can someone tell me the very basics of how computer programming works?
and others...
There really are a couple things going on here. First thing you should look at is something like a compilers book. There are several old ones, like the famous Dragon book, that are very good. I just discovered another one today, through, from the same guy who wrote the Art of Assembly Language Programming, on How to Write Great Code. I've only read the sample chapters so far, but it looks very good and also seems to address just what you want without dropping immediately into the wonders of LALR(1) grammars and so on.
"Systems programming" is more about, well, programming systems. In a systems programming ouse, you learn about using various system calls and other stuff to build useful programs. You need to know that too, but it's a different track than "how it happens."
A computer organization book, like the one aaronis refers to, is more about how the program gets from the assembly language level to actual gates and such. It's also called "computer architecture", as the phrase was used when Amdahl, Blaauw, and Brooks invented the term: instruction sets, how they're implemented, and how you make quantitative choices in the design of the things.
The classic reference text on compilers is Aho and Ullman, Principles of Compiler Design, aka the dragon book. The current edition has a few more authors and an updated title....
Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools
When I took a Computer Organization class they went through the low level details of how processors have come to be, how they process instructions, and how assembly is translated into machine code. Maybe a little lower than what you are looking for, but I think getting a glimpse of how this type of translation occurs from a higher level language to a lower level language is really neat. I think we used this book or one similar:
http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Organization-Design-Interface-Architecture/dp/1558606041
Another good resource is Alan Holub's Compiler Design in C.
In the Stack Overflow podcasts, Joel Spolsky constantly harps on Jeff Atwood about Jeff not knowing how to write code in C. His statement is that "knowing C helps you write better code." He also always uses some sort of story involving string manipulation and how knowing C would allow you to write more efficient string routines in a different language.
As someone who knows a little C, but loves to write code in perl and other high-level languages, I have never once come across a problem that I was able to solve by writing C.
I am looking for examples of real-world situations where knowing C would be useful while writing a project in a high-level/dynamic language like perl or python.
Edit: Reading some of the answers you guys have submitted have been great, but still doesn't make any sense to me in this regard:
Take the strcat example. There's a right way and a wrong way to combine strings in C. But why should I (as a high-level developer) think that I am smarter than Larry Wall? Why wouldn't the language designers write the string manipulation code the right way?
The classic example that Joel Spolsky uses is on misuse of strcat and strlen, and spotting "Shlemiel the painter" algorithms in general.
It's not that you need C to solve problems that higher-level languages can't solve, it's that knowing C well gives you a perspective on what's going on underneath all those levels of languages that allows you to write better software. Because just such a perspective helps you avoid writing code which is, unknown to you, actually O(n^2), for example.
Edit: Some clarification based on comments.
Knowing C is not a prerequisite for such knowledge, there are many ways to acquire the same knowledge.
Knowing C is also not a guarantee of these skills. You may be proficient in C and yet still write horrible, grotty, kludgy code in every other language you touch.
C is a low-level language, yet it still has modern control structures and functions so you aren't always getting caught up in the fiddly details. It's very difficult to become proficient at C without gaining a mastery of certain fundamentals (such as the details of memory management and pointers), mastery of which often pays rich dividends when working in any language.
It's always about the fundamentals.
This is true in many pursuits as well as software engineering. It is not secret incantations that make the best programmers the best, rather it is a greater mastery of the fundamentals. Experience has shown that knowledge of C tends to have a higher correlation to mastery of certain of those fundamentals, and that learning C tends to be one of the easier and more common routes to acquiring such knowledge.
It's a mistake to assume that learning C will somehow automatically give you a better understanding of low-level programming concerns. In a lot of cases even C is too high level to give you a good understanding of efficiency concerns.
A classic is i++ versus ++i. It's over-cited, so perhaps most people know the implications about performance between these two operations. But learning C wouldn't magically teach you this by itself.
I guess I understand arguments about strings. When string operations are made deceptively simple, people often use them in inefficient ways. But again, knowing that strncat exists doesn't give you a full appreciation for the efficiency concerns. A lot of C programmers probably haven't even thought about the fact that strncat has to do a strlen operation internally.
Even using C, it's important to understand what's going on behind the scenes if efficiency is a concern. People who know C tend to view things in a progression. Assembly and machine code are the building blocks of C, while C is a building block of higher level languages.
This isn't specifically true, but it's obvious that C is "closer to the metal" than many higher level languages. This has at least two effects: efficiency concerns aren't as hidden behind implicit behavior, and it's easier to screw up.
So you want a specific example of how knowing C gives you an advantage. I don't think there is one. I think what people mean when they say this is that knowing what's going on behind the scenes in whatever language you're happening to write for helps you make more intelligent decisions about how to write code. However, it's a mistake to assume that C is "what's going on behind the scenes" in Java, for instance.
It's hard to quantify exactly, but having an understanding of C will give your more insight into how higher-level language constructs are implemented, and as a consequence you'll be better able to use the constructs in an intelligent manner.
To give you a specific reason: having to write my own Garbage Collection routines has helped my write better code.
I don't think I have ever found a problem that I haven't been able to solve with a higher-level language; but started by learning C, it has instilled in me quite a number of excellent development practices. Knowing how the rudimentary parts of the flow of an application work will enable to you be able to look at your own code and get a good visual of how the data flows, and where it is stored. This then leads to a better understand of how to track down leaking memory, slow disk reads, poorly constructed caches, etc.
Keeping track of Pointers... that's another one that comes to mind.
Classic examples are things involving lower level memory management, such as the implementation of a linked list class:
struct Node
{
Data *data;
Node *next;
}
Understanding how the pointers are used to iterate the list, and what they signify in terms of the machine architecture will allow you to better understand your high level code.
Another example which Joel was referring to was the implementation of string concatenation, and the right way to create a string from a set of data.
// this is efficient
for (int i=0; i< n; i++)
{
strcat(str, data(i));
}
// this could be too, but you'd need to look at the implementation to be sure
std::string str;
for (int i=0; i<n; i++)
{
str+=data(i);
}
Knowing C helps you to write better code in C. I guess that the example of Joel Spolsky is of little use in C++ or Objective-C where specific classes for manipulating strings exist and have been crafted with performance in mind. Moreover, using C tricks in other languages may be couter productive.
Nevertheless, C knowledge is very helpful to understand general concepts in other languages and what is behind the hood in many situations.
As someone who knows a little C, but loves to write code in perl and other high-level languages, I have never once come across a problem that I was able to solve by writing C.
I am looking for examples of real-world situations where knowing C would be useful while writing a project in a high-level/dynamic language like perl or python.
It's easy to start writing high level code and then wonder we it's running slow. The truth is there are many ways to write perl or python code, and some are better (as in more efficient) than the others. If you know the low level details of how your code is executed in perl or python (both of which are written in C) you can code around several inefficiencies --like knowing which looping construct is faster, how memory is retained/released, etc.
Also, when writing a project in perl or python you sometimes hit a performance wall. The creators of the language (Guido, at least) advocate that you implement that part in C, as a language extension. To do that, well, you'll have to know C.
So, there.
For the purposes of argument, suppose you wanted to concatenate the string representations of all the integers from 1 to n (e.g. n = 5 would produce the string "12345"). Here's how one might do that naïvely in, say, Java.
String result = "";
for (int i = 1; i <= n; i++) {
result = result + Integer.toString(i);
}
If you were to rewrite that code segment (which is quite good-looking in Java) in C as literally as possible, you would get something to make most C programmers cringe in fear:
char *result = malloc(1);
*result = '\0';
for (int i = 1; i <= n; i++) {
char *intStr = malloc(11);
itoa(i, intStr, 10);
char *tempStr = malloc(/* some large size */);
strcpy(tempStr, result);
strcat(tempStr, intStr);
free(result);
free(intStr);
result = tempStr;
}
Because strings in Java are immutable, Integer.toString creates a dummy string and string concatenation creates a new string instance instead of altering the old one. That's not easy to see from just looking at the Java code. Knowing how said code translates into C is one way of learning exactly how inefficient said code is.
Do you use arrays much ? and do you come across situations where you need items to be stored in memory without knowing how many of them (i.e. based on a query from the database?) then I suppose C would teach you great things like stacks, structs and link lists which might help you. Regards, Andy
Knowing C is really not worth much. Many of us who know C deeply like to think that all that deep insight is valuable and important.
Some of us who know C can't think of a single specific feature of C that's helpful to know about.
Knowing how pointers work in C (especially with C's syntax) isn't all that helpful. In a high-level language your statements create objects and manage their interaction. Pointers and references are -- perhaps -- interesting from a hypothetical point of view. But the knowledge has no practical impact on how you use Java or Python.
The higher-level languages are the way they are. Knowing how doesn't change those languages; it doesn't change how you use them, debug or test them.
Knowing how to create or manipulate a linked list has no earthly impact on Python list class definition. None.
Knowing the difference between Linked List and Array List might help you write a Java program. But the C implementation doesn't help you choose between Linked List and Array List. The decision is independent of knowing C.
A bad algorithm is bad in every language. Knowing inner mysteries of C doesn't make a bad algorithm any less bad. Knowing C doesn't help you know the Java collections or the Python built-in types.
I can't see any value in learning C. Learning Fortran is just as valuable.
Technically, all of the deficiencies of C would force you to code around them; making you write more code -> making you more experienced in general. Lacking any portable integer bigger than 32-bits, for example, C has, in the past, made me write my own bignum library.
The lack of implicit memory, resource and error management (garbage collection, RAII, automatically-called constructors/destructors, maybe exceptions) force C users to write a lot of initialization, error-handling and cleanup code. It may just be me, but I'm never tired of writing such code. I go and read the documentation of every external function I call, return to my code and check for every return value and other failure-indicative stuff. It even makes me feel safe!
This last point is probably the biggest one to be made in favor of the argument. You can only write so many malloc()/free() pairs before you start to analyze the lifetime of every single variable you come across in every single language! C++'s automatic-storage objects don't help this disorder, either.
Writing truly portable C code often requires the programmer to be free of a lot assumptions about the host system - think sizeof(), CHAR___BITS, unsigned long, UINT_MAX. While this hasn't helped me write better code in other languages, it has helped me think about possible alternate implementations: how a tiny microprocessor could still run my C code, generating a gazillion RISC instructions for my simple one-line statement. (That is another thing; not many other languages map to and from a given assembly language so easily in my head. Then again, that may just be me.)
Of course, none of these arguments go only for C. #S.Lott has a valid point - Fortran might be an equally good alternative. But there is so much C code around! A whole personal computer system from top to bottom -applications to libraries to drivers to kernel- is available in source code in C. It would be such a waste if you could not read it.
I think it is worth knowing some low-level language, and there are pragmatic reasons to choose C:
It's low-level, close to assembler
It's widespread
Understanding the whole stack is valuable. Sometimes you need to debug something's guts. Sometimes you cannot fix a performance problem without low-level knowledge (this is often not the case, e.g., when the performance problem is purely algorithmic, but sometimes it is).
Why is C widely considered the quintessential "bottom of the stack", and not some other language(s)? I think this because C is a low-level programming language, and C won. It has been a while now, but C was not always as dominant. To take just one famous example, the proponents of Common Lisp (which had its own ways of writing low-level code) were hoping their language would be popular, too, and eventually lost.
The following are usually implemented in C:
operating systems (Unix variants, Windows, many embedded operating systems)
higher-level programming languages (many popular implementations of Java, Python, etc)
(obviously) reams of popular open source projects
I'm not a hardware person, but I gather that C has influenced CPU design heavily, too.
So if you believe in understanding the whole stack, learning C is, from a pragmatic perspective, the best choice.
As a caveat, I think it's worth learning assembler, as well. Although C is close to the metal, I didn't fully understand C until I had to do some assembler. It is occasionally helpful to understand how functions calls are actually performed, how for loops are implemented, etc. Less important, but also useful, is having to (at least once) deal with a system without virtual memory. When using C on Windows, Unix, and certain other operating systems, even humble malloc does a lot of work under the covers that is easier to appreciate, debug and/or tune if you've ever had to deal with manually locking and unlocking memory regions (not that I would recommend doing so on a regular basis!)
I see it like this , everything boils down to C in a crossplatform level, and assembly in a platform specific way. So it's like being a crosscountry Rally racer, and C is basic automotive mechanics, you can be a great driver but when you get into trouble knowing C means you can probably get yourself back in the race, if not you're stuck calling the mechanics. And assembly is what the mechanics and manufacturers know, it's a worthy investment if that's what you want to do, otherwise you can just trust the mechanics.
For specifics think about memory management, hardwar drivers, physics engines, high performance 3d graphics, TCP stacks, binary protocols, embedded software, creating high level languages like Perl
You cannot write an OS kernel in Perl; C would be a much better choice for that, because it is low-level enough to express everything the kernel should do, and portable enough to let you port your kernel to different architectures
Knowing C is not a requirement to being able to effectively use higher-level languages, but it certainly can help ones general understanding of how computers and software work - I think it's similar to an assertion that knowing some assembly language or computer architecture/hardware logic (and/or/nand gates, etc) can help a C programmer be a better programmer.
Sometimes in order to solve a problem it helps to know how things are working 'underneath' what you're doing.
I don't think this means a programmer must know C in order to be a good programmer, but I think that knowing C can be helpful to almost any programmer.
Not knowing Perl well, I am wondering if it is now possible to distribute processor load to more than one physical core with several threads created in a single program in Perl, without spawning additional processes
I don't think there can be any specific example.
What learning C does for you is give you an insight, a broadening of the mind, into how computers (and software) work. It's a very abstract thing ..
It doesn't make you write better code in python, it just makes you more of a computer scientist.
The reference that Wedge made to Joel's article mentioning Shlemiel the painter is an interesting one but has no relevance here. That algorithm is not tied to C in any particular way (although it manifests itself in null-terminated strings).
Python's strings are immutable anyway, and completely different from C's model of strings, so I don't quite see the relationship.
I suppose one concrete example is optimizing a parser or a lexer or a program that keeps writing to a string buffer all the time. If you use normal strings instead of a string buffer, you'll run across a problem when you build very large strings.
Consider that:
a = a + b
makes a copy of both a and b. It doesn't change the string that was referenced by a, it creates a new string, allocating more memory, etc.
If a becomes considerably large, and you keep adding small things to it, then Shlemiel the painter will manifest himself.
But then again, knowing this has nothing to do with knowing C, just knowing how your language implements things at the low level. (This is where having an experiece in C will help you).
In Python, say you have a function
def foo(l=[])
l.append("bar")
return l;
On some version of Python, available about a year ago, running foo() for times, you'd get a really interesting result (i.e. ["bar","bar","bar","bar]).
It seems that someone implemented the default parameters as a static variable (and without resetting it), so unexpected results happen.
Perhaps my example was contrived - a friend of mine who actually likes Python found this peculiar bug, but the fact of the matter is all of these languages are implemented in C or C++. Not knowing and not understanding concepts that are fundamental to the base language means that you won't have an in-depth understanding of languages that are built on top of that.
I find all the "why bother with C/C++/ASM question silly". If you're inclined enough to learn a language, that means that you're curious enough to get into it the first place. Why stop at just before C?
Knowing C is great because it does nothing behind your back (GC, bounds checking, etc.). It only does exactly what you tell it too. Nothing is implied. Even C++ does things you don't tell it too with RAII (of course, it is implied that the object is destructed when it goes out of scope, but you don't actually write that). C is a great way to learn what goes on 'under the hood' of the computer, without having to write assembly.
inefficient code (eg loops of string+=) are typically inefficient in any language. what difference does it make if someone explains why it is inefficient in one language or the other? knowing C, but not realizing that a method is inefficient, is no different than knowing python and not realizing the same.
I've spent (on and off) the past two and a half years learning C, from books like the k&r. I soon came to the realization that I found the prose difficult to understand, etc. I read the "Teach yourself C in 21 days" book first, but I couldn't even understand it. Now that I have a fair knowledge of how to use the fundamentals of C (this doesn't include pointers/structures, but basic design) I was thinking of reading the Teach yourself C in 21 days again, from pointers, so I can start working on programs. I didn't finish the k&r because of its level of difficulty with it's prose, and some of the exercises. I know a score of people that didn't even use books to learn how to code. So, I'm asking, if anyone thinks is a good idea that I just read the 21 day book, and move forward from there, and read more advanced books like APUE or, expert C programming, and so on.
It's prose is simple to understand, and I really want to get into some projects, where I'd probably realize certain pitfalls for myself.
Could you give me any advice. I'm not in a hurry, but I'm eager to get things done!
K&R is the best book to learn C from, IMO.
I agree with Peter Norvig: It's not possible to proficient in anything in 21 days. All you're trying to do is get a feel for the syntax so you can start writing simple programs.
I think you need to start writing some simple programs as soon as possible. Try out what you know and get comfortable with that. Then read a new chapter and try that out.
Writing code brings it to life. Reading books is very dry. I sometimes read a book from start to finish to learn a new language, but that's only because I've learned so many languages by now that I'm not learning the concepts - just the syntax and the odd novel feature.
=== From my personal experience and IMO, you are doing it backwards. Start with Hello World! ===
When I am learning a new programming language, I don't just say I "will learn this language because I hear it is good to learn". I need to have a reason to learn the language. Otherwise if I don't have a reason to learn the language I will not learn or retain anything I read about the new programming language.
I learn by doing and that is why I start with doing the "hello world" example.
C is not the most user friendly language and does not have many "easy small programs" that you can implement and do something cool with... and that is why it is hard to get into.
And that is why I think you really need a good motivator to learn C.
Right now the current motivator you have is "I should learn C because people say it is good to learn" ... and I don't think that is enough of a motivator to learn C. One suggestion would be to write a GTK GUI application in C... that will teach you a lot about C and the end product will be something very concrete and cool to point to ( hence a good motivator ).
The fastest way to learn is to need to know it. If you've got a problem you need to solve, say, you need to calculate an optimal tournament order for your community's soccer teams, then you will be better motivated to learn how to solve the problem. You will end up encountering one difficulty after another as you learn, but they will always be of the form 'my program doesn't do x' rather than 'i don't really get x'. Each exercise of fixing each shortcoming will teach you new things about the language and how to use them. The added benefit of having a clear goal in mind, with many small successes along the way will keep you energized and provide positive feedback to your learning.
The K&R C book will provide you with just the right tools to approach a problem using C idioms.
If you need some generic ideas for problems to solve, try projecteuler.net, or search for related questions here on stack overflow
Gosh, 2.5 years seems like an awfully long time! I used to be an instructor with a commercial training company and our C course, which covered the entire language including "advanced" stuff like function pointers, only took 4 days! Which bits are you finding particularly difficult?
K&R is a great book (maybe it is all you need to earn C) all you need is some patience and hard work
Use those 21 days by doing the exercises in K&R.
Pick easy ones first. When you get stuck, you can ask Stackoverflow. ;)
The best way for you to learn C is to put in practice the topics you are learning.
For example if you are going through basic principles like looping and if statements, you can build yourself a little program that simulates the functionality of counting changes on a vending machine.
Once you move on to more advanced topics like pointers and data structures you can build a Logo like program. The user can input each step of the turtle's movement, and you can store that in a linked list. Afterwards you can perform pointer operations on your data structure by deleting, reversing, or adding nodes.
So the idea is to start coding to test what you learned. You will find that some of the time you don't really understand even though it seemed clear in the book. As a good programmer you will end up having to revisit the topics until you actually know it.
Teaching yourself C in 21 days is like teaching yourself handgun safety in 2 minutes. The results of either are undefined, except C lacks a safety or decocking mechanism.
In reality, its going to take the better part of two years to achieve any kind of definition of proficient. You'll gain this by shooting yourself in the foot, repeatedly, while learning from a determination to tackle practical problems using C.
It takes the better part of 9 months to discover blinking, while blinking is a very complex process, C is not always instinctual.
I think you have to use some libraries like GWT because we learn more when we see how to use the code of other people. And doing some UI is far more motivating than writing console apps. It's funier to manipulate Windows, Button, CheckBox than int, float, double (and not so much difficult).
First of all, if you have no programming experience at all, you can't learn a language in 21 days. You will need at best several months.
On the other hand, if you have programming experience, my opinion is that the best thing you could do is find a "cookbook", like the ones available here. I think Deitel had something like a C cookbook, you should visit their site and see. After you find a book like that, you have to start writing code, all sorts of code, to cover most of the problems that you could encounter while working on a project: memory management/data structures,input/output,networking,etc.
Good luck!