I'm working on a MUD (Multi User Dungeon) in Python and am just now getting around to the point where I need to add some rooms, enemies, items, etc. I could hardcode all this in, but it seems like this is more of a job for a database.
However, I've never really done any work with databases before so I was wondering if you have any advice on how to set this up?
What format should I store the data in?
I was thinking of storing a Dictionary object in the database for each entity. In htis way, I could then simply add new attributes to the database on the fly without altering the columns of the database. Does that sound reasonable?
Should I store all the information in the same database but in different tables or different entities (enemies and rooms) in different databases.
I know this will be a can of worms, but what are some suggestions for a good database? Is MySQL a good choice?
1) There's almost never any reason to have data for the same application in different databases. Not unless you're a Fortune500 size company (OK, i'm exaggregating).
2) Store the info in different tables.
As an example:
T1: Rooms
T2: Room common properties (aplicable to every room), with a row per **room*
T3: Room unique properties (applicable to minority of rooms, with a row per property per room - thos makes it easy to add custom properties without adding new columns
T4: Room-Room connections
Having T2 AND T3 is important as it allows you to combine efficiency and speed of row-per-room idea where it's applicable with flexibility/maintanability/space saving of attribute-per-entity-per-row (or Object/attribute/value as IIRC it's called in fancy terms) schema
Good discussion is here
3) Implementation wise, try to write something re-usable, e.g. have generic "Get_room" methods, which underneath access the DB -= ideally via transact SQL or ANSI SQL so you can survive changing of DB back-end fairly painlessly.
For initial work, you can use SQLite. Cheap, easy and SQL compatible (the best property of all). Install is pretty much nothing, DB management can be done by freeware tools or even FireFox plugin IIRC (all of FireFox 3 data stores - history, bookmarks, places, etc... - are all SQLite databases).
For later, either MySQL or Postgres (I don't do either one professionally so can't recommend one). IIRC at some point Sybase had free personal db server as well, but no idea if that's still the case.
This technique is called entity-attribute-value model. It's normally preferred to have DB schema that reflects the structure of the objects, and update the schema when your object structure changes. Such strict schema is easier to query and it's easier to make sure that the data is correct on the database level.
One database with multiple tables is the way to do.
If you want a database server, I've recommend PostgreSQL. MySQL has some advantages, like easy replication, but PostgreSQL is generally nicer to work with. If you want something smaller that works directly with the application, SQLite is a good embedded database.
Storing an entire object (serialized/encoded) as a value in the database is bad for querying - I am sure that some queries in your mud will NOT need to know 100% of attributes, or may retrieve a list of object by a value of attributes.
it seems like this is more of a job
for a database
True, although 'database' doesn't have to mean 'relational database'. Most existing MUDs store all data in memory, and read it in from flat-file saved in a plain-text data format. I'm not necessarily recommending this route, just pointing out that a traditional database is by no means necessary. If you do want to go the relational route, recent versions of Python come with sqlite which is a lightweight embedded relational database with good SQL support.
Using relational databases with your code can be awkward. Any change to a game logic class can require a parallel change to the database, and changes to the code that read and write to the database. For this reason good planning will help you a lot, but it's hard to plan a good database schema without experience. At least get your entity classes planned first, then build a database schema around it. Reading up on normalizing a database and understanding the principles there will help.
You may want to use an 'object-relational mapper' which can simplify a lot of this for you. Examples in Python include SQLObject, SQLAlchemy, and Autumn. These hide a lot of the complexities for you, but as a result can hide some of the important details too. I'd recommend using the database directly until you are more familiar with it, and consider using an ORM in the future.
I was thinking of storing a Dictionary
object in the database for each
entity. In htis way, I could then
simply add new attributes to the
database on the fly without altering
the columns of the database. Does that
sound reasonable?
Unfortunately not - if you do that, you waste 99% of the capabilities of the database and are effectively using it as a glorified data store. However, if you don't need aforementioned database capabilities, this is a valid route if you use the right tool for the job. The standard shelve module is well worth looking at for this purpose.
Should I store all the information in
the same database but in different
tables or different entities (enemies
and rooms) in different databases.
One database. One table in the database per entity type. That's the typical approach when using a relational database (eg. MySQL, SQL Server, SQLite, etc).
I know this will be a can of worms,
but what are some suggestions for a
good database? Is MySQL a good choice?
I would advise sticking with sqlite until you're more familiar with SQL. Otherwise, MySQL is a reasonable choice for a free game database, as is PostGreSQL.
One database. Each database table should refer to an actual data object.
For instance, create a table for all items, all creatures, all character classes, all treasures, etc.
Spend some time now and figure out how objects will relate to each other, as this will affect your database structure. For example, can a character have more than one character class? Can monsters have character classes? Can monsters carry items? Can rooms have more than one monster?
It seems pedantic, but you'll save yourself a whole lot of trouble early by figuring out what database objects "belong" to which other database objects.
Related
I installed a wordpress blog and was tinkering with the database,
I noticed they are not using any sotred procedures or views why is this?
Or is it just not available for wordpress.org users and some premium feature for paid wordpress.com members?
Is it not advisable to use these to improve performance considering wordpress stores almost everything except media files in database.
Are there any resources / attempts to optimize wp database using these ?
The decision regarding where to keep transformations of / operations on data is heavily rooted in the concept of what you consider to be the central interface to the data within the application as a whole.
If you're a database programmer, you're much more likely to consider that central point to be the database. In this view, the data is the center, and the surrounding application can be thought of as just an interface on top of that data. This view makes sense when dealing with anything where data itself is key. I.e., where the data will stay put over time, and the ways in which the data is accessed, or the things which you want to do with the data will change over time. Examples which fit well into this view include: Financial systems, Healthcare records, Customer data, Phone records... pretty much anything that has a lot of ways of looking at the data, and is constantly growing.
If you're an application programmer, the data itself may be almost secondary. In this view, the data is transient. Where and how that data is stored is even less important. The MVC pattern encourages the database to be utterly replaceable, and strongly discourages putting any sort of logic related to anything other than basic data integrity into the the database. There is certainly nothing about the MVC pattern or other application-centric development practices which argue specifically against stored procedures or views, but there is much less room for them to be useful. Examples which fit well into this view inclue: Blogs, Message-boards, Stand-alone Documents... pretty much anything that has a very simple structure, does not have complex relations, and can be divided easily into self-contained units. Anything for which "what you can do" is tied closely in concept to "what you are doing it to".
A summary of the two above-mentioned viewpoints is that there are tools for which examining data is more important (data-centric), and there are tools for which creating data is more important (application-centric).
Another way of looking at it is that Stored Procedures and Views are just interfaces on top of a database. Wordpress is also an interface on top of a database, it's just written in PHP.
Well, I don't know their rationale for a fact but my guess would be that since MySQL actually stores the procedures in the "mysql" database - not the wordpress database where the tables are - that they did it because it can be an access issue. Let's say you have a DB server supporting multiple WP databases. All the procedures get put into the "mysql" database. So when you backup your WP database you don't get any of the procedures. You'd need to back up the mysql (system) database, and its likely the users would not have the rights to do so in such an environment, which is the typical environment for WP installs.
Excellent answers. To add, I think that from a plugin coding side, it is easier to update just the file system and do as little database work on an as needed basis.
Especially if a plugin update doesn't install right the first time and you have to restore the files and try again, a database change would be a lot more difficult to reverse.
I want to make a database that can store any king of objects and for each classes of objects different features.
Giving some of the questions i asked on different forums the solution is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entity-attribute-value_model or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xml with some kind of validation before storage.
Can you please give me an alternative to the ones above or some advantages or examples that would help decide which of the two methods is the best one in my case?
Thanks
UPDATE 1 :
Is your db read or write intensive?
will be both -> auction engine
Will you ever conceivably move off SQL Server and onto another platform?
I won't move it, I will use a WCF Service to expose functionality to mobile devices.
How do you plan to surface your data to the application?
Entity Framework for DAL and WCF Service Layer for Bussiness
Will people connect to your data through means other than those you control?
No
While #marc_s is correct in his cautions, there unarguably are situations where the relational model is just not flexible enough. For quite a number of years now, I've been working with a database that is straightforwardly relational for the largest part, but has a small EAV part. This is because users can invent new properties any time for observation purposes in trials.
Admittedly, it is awkward wrt querying and reporting, to name a few, but no other strategy would suffice here. We use stored procedures with T-Sql's pivot to offer flattened data structures for reporting and grids with dynamic columns for display. Once the infrastructure stands it's pretty comfortable altogether.
We never considered using XML data because it wasn't there yet and, apart from its common limitations, it has some drawbacks in our context:
The EAV data is queried heavily. A development team needs more than standard sql knowledge because of the special syntax. Indexing is possible but "there is a cost associated with maintaining the index during data modification" (as per MSDN).
The XML datatype is far less accessible than regular tables and fields when it comes to data processing and reporting.
Hardly ever do users fetch all attribute values of an entity, but the whole XML would have to be crunched anyway.
And, not unimportant: XML datatype is not (yet) supported by Entity Framework.
So, to conclude, I would go for a design that is relational as much as possible but EAV where necessary. Auction items could have a number of fixed fields and EAV's for the flexible data.
I will use my answer from another question:
EAV:
Storage. If your value will be used often for different products, e.g. clothes where attribute "size" and values of sizes will be repeated often, your attribute/values tables will be smaller. Meanwhile, if values will be rather unique that repeatable (e.g. values for attribute "page count" for books), you will get a big enough table with values, where every value will be linked to one product.
Speed. This scheme is not weakest part of project, because here data will be changed rarely. And remember that you always can denormalize database scheme to prepare DW-like solution. You can use caching if database part will be slow too.
Elasticity This is the strongest part of solution. You can easily add/remove attributes and values and ever to move values from one attribute to another!
XML storage is more like NoSQL: you will abdicate database functionality and you wisely prepare your solution to:
Do not lose data integrity.
Do not rewrite all database functionality in application (it is senseless)
I think there is way too much context missing for anyone to add any kind of valid comment to the discussion.
Is your db read or write intensive?
Will you ever conceivably move off SQL Server and onto another platform?
How do you plan to surface your data to the application?
Will people connect to your data through means other than those you control?
First do not go either route unless the structure truly cannot be known in advance. Using EAV or XML because you don't want to actually define the requirements will result in an unmaintainable mess and a badly performing mess at that. Usually at least 90+% (a conservative estimate based on my own experience) of the fields can be known in advance and should be in ordinary relational tables. Only use special techiniques for structures that can't be known in advance. I can't stress this strongly enough. EAV tables look simple but are actually very hard to query especially for complex reporting queries. Sure it is easy to get data into them, but very very difficult to get the data back out.
If you truly need to go the EAV route, consider using a nosql database for that part of the application and a relational database for the rest. Nosql databases simply handle EAV better.
I'm investigating a new project which will be a social networking style site. I'm reading up on RavenDb and I like the look of a lot of its features. I've not read up on nosql all that much but I'm wondering if there's a niche it fits best with and old school sql is still the best choice for other stuff.
I'm thinking that the permissions plug in would be ideal for a social net style site - but will it really perform in an environment where the database will be getting hammered - or is it optimised for a more reporting style system where it's possible to keep throwing new data structures at the database and report on those structures.
I'm eager to use the right tool for the job - I'll be using MVC3, Windsor + either Nhibernate+Sql server or RavenDb.
Should I stick with the old school sql or go with the new kid on the block: ravendb?
This question can get very close to being subjective (even though it's really not), you're talking about NoSQL as if it is just one thing, and that is not the case.
You have
graph databases (Neo4j etc),
map/reduce style document databases (Couch,Raven),
document databases which attempt to feel like ordinary databases (Mongo),
Key/value stores (Cassandra etc)
moar goes here.
Each of them attempts to solve a different problem via different means, and whether you'd use one of them over a traditional relational store is
A matter of suitability
A matter of personal preference
At the end of the day, for the primary data-storage for a single system, a document database or relational store is probably what you want, although for different parts of your system you may well end up utilising a graph database (For calculating neighbours etc), or a key/value store (like Facebook does/did for inbox messages).
The main benefit of choosing a document store as your primary store over that of a relational one, is that you haven't got to worry about trying to map your objects into a collection of tables, and there is less configuration overhead involved in doing so.
The other downside/upside would be that you have to learn something new and make mistakes along the way.
So my answer if I am going to be direct?
RavenDB would be suitable
SQL would be suitable
Which do you prefer to use? These days I'd probably just go for Raven, knowing I can dump data into a relational store for reporting purposes and probably do likewise for other parts of my system, and getting free-text search and fastish-writes/fast-reads without going through the effort of defining separate read/write stores is an overall win.
But that's me, and I am biased.
I'm pretty new to database development in general and I've never used ORM before. I'm interested in the benefits of using one, specifically saving time writing boilerplate SQL queries. I'd like to use ORM for a project that I'm working on right now, but I'm not sure it's applicable.
This project is more akin to change tracking for very small (<= 500 characters) documents. I need to track edits and categorizations made by multiple users. Not really to see the specific changes they make, but more to see if the users agree with each other. I am using a SQL database for this (as opposed to actual document control) for a few reasons:
The documents are really small; and I'm only interested in the strings, not really in files.
I wanted the ability to perform ad-hoc queries against the data for development purposes, and didn't want an unpleasantly surprised halfway through that a particular document control package couldn't do what I wanted.
From most of what I've read it seems like you need a direct mapping from columns to data fields in an object to use ORM. What I have now does not even come close to this. To create objects representing documents in different stages of editing I have to cobble together data from columns in different tables, in different combinations.
So my question is: Does an ORM like Hibernate apply to this type of project? And if it does can one be added to an existing application/database?
If it makes a difference: I'm using Java, MySQL, and JDBC. The web app users have access to for edits is made with GWT and hosted via Tomcat6. If I need it, I have complete control of the webserver.
Thanks.
Does an ORM like Hibernate apply to
this type of project?
Yes
And if it does can one be added to an
existing application/database?
Yes
My opinion is that an ORM tool could be useful for you but you really need to delve into it to see for yourself. Remember when you use an ORM tool you are not forced to use only that to connect to your database. ORM tools in general make the most sense for applications that store data in a very object like structure. For instance your user code might be the place to start. Usually you only create 1 user at a time, you edit 1 user at a time, you check if 1 user is logged into. It also makes sense for things where you would return a list of results like Order Lines. Where I have run into issues with ORM tools is when you have complex data that requires multiple joins especially back to the table you started in. For those cases you might want to keep doing what you are doing. Overall, ORM tools are great but they are like a lot of other things in software development. Try them out on a small part of your code and use them where they work and don't where they don't. Ultimately, you are the one that will have to deal with and maintain whatever you make. Just educate yourself on Hibernate and I am sure you will know what to do!
I think that ORM (I would suggest using the JPA standard, probably with Hibernate as the provider) could suit your project.
It is fairly traditional, as you say, for database columns to map directly onto object fields. If you need to keep your existing database structure (which apparently doesn't map at all well to your objects), then you might find that its more trouble than it's worth to use ORM.
While it's certainly possible to use ORM to map to a specific database schema - perhaps because it's used by other systems - my view is that one of the biggest advantages of ORM is that you can almost ignore the schema. Once you design your objects, and tell hibernate about them, hibernate will create whatever tables it needs.
If you have to create an application like - let's say a blog application, creating the database schema is relatively simple. You have to create some tables, tblPosts, tblAttachments, tblCommets, tblBlaBla… and that's it (ok, i know, that's a bit simplified but you understand what i mean).
What if you have an application where you want to allow users to define parts of the schema at runtime. Let's say you want to build an application where users can log any kind of data. One user wants to log his working hours (startTime, endTime, project Id, description), the next wants to collect cooking recipes, others maybe stock quotes, the weekly weight of their babies, monthly expenses they spent for food, the results of their favorite football teams or whatever stuff you can think about.
How would you design a database to hold all that very very different kind of data? Would you create a generic schema that can hold all kind of data, would you create new tables reflecting the user data schema or do you have another great idea to do that?
If it's important: I have to use SQL Server / Entity Framework
Let's try again.
If you want them to be able to create their own schema, then why not build the schema using, oh, I dunno, the CREATE TABLE statment. You have a full boat, full functional, powerful database that can do amazing things like define schemas and store data. Why not use it?
If you were just going to do some ad-hoc properties, then sure.
But if it's "carte blanche, they can do whatever they want", then let them.
Do they have to know SQL? Umm, no. That's your UIs task. Your job as a tool and application designer is to hide the implementation from the user. So present lists of fields, lines and arrows if you want relationships, etc. Whatever.
Folks have been making "end user", "simple" database tools for years.
"What if they want to add a column?" Then add a column, databases do that, most good ones at least. If not, create the new table, copy the old data, drop the old one.
"What if they want to delete a column?" See above. If yours can't remove columns, then remove it from the logical view of the user so it looks like it's deleted.
"What if they have eleventy zillion rows of data?" Then they have a eleventy zillion rows of data and operations take eleventy zillion times longer than if they had 1 row of data. If they have eleventy zillion rows of data, they probably shouldn't be using your system for this anyway.
The fascination of "Implementing databases on databases" eludes me.
"I have Oracle here, how can I offer less features and make is slower for the user??"
Gee, I wonder.
There's no way you can predict how complex their data requirements will be. Entity-Attribute-Value is one typical solution many programmers use, but it might be be sufficient, for instance if the user's data would conventionally be modeled with multiple tables.
I'd serialize the user's custom data as XML or YAML or JSON or similar semi-structured format, and save it in a text BLOB.
You can even create inverted indexes so you can look up specific values among the attributes in your BLOB. See http://bret.appspot.com/entry/how-friendfeed-uses-mysql (the technique works in any RDBMS, not just MySQL).
Also consider using a document store such as Solr or MongoDB. These technologies do not need to conform to relational database conventions. You can add new attributes to any document at runtime, without needing to redefine the schema. But it's a tradeoff -- having no schema means your app can't depend on documents/rows being similar throughout the collection.
I'm a critic of the Entity-Attribute-Value anti-pattern.
I've written about EAV problems in my book, SQL Antipatterns Volume 1: Avoiding the Pitfalls of Database Programming.
Here's an SO answer where I list some problems with Entity-Attribute-Value: "Product table, many kinds of products, each product has many parameters."
Here's a blog I posted the other day with some more discussion of EAV problems: "EAV FAIL."
And be sure to read this blog "Bad CaRMa" about how attempting to make a fully flexible database nearly destroyed a company.
I would go for a Hybrid Entity-Attribute-Value model, so like Antony's reply, you have EAV tables, but you also have default columns (and class properties) which will always exist.
Here's a great article on what you're in for :)
As an additional comment, I knocked up a prototype for this approach using Linq2Sql in a few days, and it was a workable solution. Given that you've mentioned Entity Framework, I'd take a look at version 4 and their POCO support, since this would be a good way to inject a hybrid EAV model without polluting your EF schema.
On the surface, a schema-less or document-oriented database such as CouchDB or SimpleDB for the custom user data sounds ideal. But I guess that doesn't help much if you can't use anything but SQL and EF.
I'm not familiar with the Entity Framework, but I would lean towards the Entity-Attribute-Value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entity-Attribute-Value_model) database model.
So, rather than creating tables and columns on the fly, your app would create attributes (or collections of attributes) and then your end users would complete the values.
But, as I said, I don't know what the Entity Framework is supposed to do for you, and it may not let you take this approach.
Not as a critical comment, but it may help save some of your time to point out that this is one of those Don Quixote Holy Grail type issues. There's an eternal quest for probably over 50 years to make a user-friendly database design interface.
The only quasi-successful ones that have gained any significant traction that I can think of are 1. Excel (and its predecessors), 2. Filemaker (the original, not its current flavor), and 3. (possibly, but doubtfully) Access. Note that the first two are limited to basically one table.
I'd be surprised if our collective conventional wisdom is going to help you break the barrier. But it would be wonderful.
Rather than re-implement sqlservers "CREATE TABLE" statement, which was done many years ago by a team of programmers who were probably better than you or I, why not work on exposing SQLSERVER in a limited way to the users -- let them create thier own schema in a limited way and leverage the power of SQLServer to do it properly.
I would just give them a copy of SQL Server Management Studio, and say, "go nuts!" Why reinvent a wheel within a wheel?
Check out this post you can do it but it's a lot of hard work :) If performance is not a concern an xml solution could work too though that is also alot of work.