I know this is not a programming question per se, but I wanted to get as much input from the SO community on a new project I hope to get started. The project is from being started from scratch and thus every decision for programming languages, databases, frameworks, platforms and what not are up in the air. I'm hoping to get your opinion on the matter, what you feel are the strengths and weaknesses of each option.
Database:
Currently I have the option of using MSSQL or MySQL. While I am leaning towards using MySQL because it is free and most probably has all the features I need. However, there is the possibility of having a lot of hierarchical data and the new hierarchical data type in MSSQL is quite appealing. Does it really simplify matters that much? Also MSSQL supports many more advanced SQL functions that may or may not be useful in the long run. While for development I can get access to Server 2008, multiple licenses as the development team grows and for production, are the costs justified?
Programming Languages:
The project will have a web based front end UI and a server based component that will do some heavy lifting.
For the web based UI, I was thinking of maybe doing Apache/IIS with PHP or IIS with ASP.Net in C#. I'd like to use a good framework to properly utilize good design patterns that should structure the code and development of the app. As well as make modifications in the long run easy to implement. I also want the GUI to look good and don't like the idea of buying .Net controls from component vendors. Instead I prefer the idea of using good CSS, and open sources like YUI and javascript to make the UI sleek.
For the server based component, I was thinking of using C#. I have no real development experience in C++ and I'd like good libraries and sufficient speed is good enough. However, while the web based UI and server based component is loosely coupled, there may be instances where the UI needs to communicate (call methods and what not) with the server based component and I want to pick languages/frameworks that will play nice with each other.
All suggestions on frameworks to incorporate are welcome.
Version Control:
I have had good experiences with SVN and a pretty bad experiences with TFS. I've never worked with GIT. Which do you think is better in terms of features as well as general developer familiarity. I want to pick something that other developers will know and not have trouble with.
I apologize if the questions are bit redundant or I'm not providing enough information or using bad terminology. I plan to edit and improve the question as I get feedback. Thanks!
EDIT:
Who: This would most probably be a startup formed of college students or junior developers. I want the project to utilize technologies that most people are familiar with or are easy to pick up.
What: I'd need hours and days to explain the solution. But in the end when you break it down, its a web based UI (think standard web app to just manage database data) that would be used to knowledgeable clients. The server based component would be very separate except for the fact that it should be able to communicate with the web app.
I can provide more information as required but I would appreciate an opportunity for users to answer and provide their ideas before you hastily close the question.
Obviously it depends a lot on specific requirements, but then again, even with those I probably wouldn't be able to tell for sure!
I've been working on a from-scratch project myself for a couple of months, and have generally found:
Choosing Microsoft for all the layers just goes down much easier (my subjective opinion). For example I would use C# for the UI, the back end, and use MSSQL for the database. Nothing at all wrong with non-Microsoft vendors, I'm no Microsoft fan-boy, I just struggle to get productive with unfamiliar tools. Depends where your experience lies though.
Database: In particular I've found that .NET and MSSQL go easily together. When I started the project I was using a PostgreSQL (because it's free, fully featured and has open-source warm fuzzies). However I abandoned it in favour of MSSQL simply because it was taking me too long to get database work done in an unfamiliar language with unfamiliar tools. Also, I'm not sure MSSQL is so expensive anymore, for example for a web application, MSSQL 2008 Web Edition is pretty damn cheap per-processor I think (only on SPLA licensing though). If you're concerned about database features in a free implementation though, personally I think PostgreSQL has a very full feature set, nicely standardised, and rapidly growing.
UI: I'm pretty inexperienced, but ASP.NET MVC looks far less painful to me than ASP.NET Web Forms. I like PHP too, but again I'd match the UI language with the back-end language, so would recommend .NET.
On frameworks, I'm immersed in DALs at the moment. I like Subsonic for lightweight data, NHibernate for heavy-weight.
I still have a long way to go with my project so perhaps I can only see the short-term benefits and drawbacks at the moment. But in general I would say: use the technologies that you're most comfortable using, as you'll be way more productive and the end result will probably be about the same anyway. If you want to learn new technologies though, and who doesn't? - go ahead, just expect it to take a lot longer.
Didn't want to answer 'cause it's so open ended. But a few points:
Money
First, check out BizSpark. That should take care of any money aspect for 3 years. For a service company, that means not only free VS Team Suite and Office and so on, but free Windows, SQL, etc. If your startup can't afford to spend a bit on MS tech in 3 years, it's probably a bad business. So that takes out licensing.
On a similar note, Sun has Startup Essentials. Could be interesting on the hardware side of things, but I haven't actually competitively priced them versus Dell/HP.
Software
It doesn't sound like you have hard enough requirements to say "oh, this slightly-less-popular software X is perfect for my domain Y and is gonna give me a very big boost". In fact, your project might not be like that at all. Maybe it, technically, is going to be a relatively plain application just pushing data around or whatever. You didn't specify.
For a small startup, personal productivity is probably going to trump any other argument. If your people are excellent in X, then that's one of your top arguments right there.
If you really don't have any particular system you're most comfortable with, be conservative. Stick with .NET or Java, as they'll give you the widest range of useful possibilities.
As far as things like OS and Database, I'm biased, but I think Microsoft will give you platforms that are easier to take advantage of than you'll find elsewhere. For instance, setting up load balancing, clustering, centralized authentication, managing servers (updates, events, etc.) is going to be easier to get going on Windows than it would be on another platform, assuming you're not an expert in either. Configuring SQL Server, even the advanced features, is a piece of cake. (Go time someone who knows neither: Setup a DB mirror in MSSQL and MySQL -- which is going to take more work?) Again, this is all predicated on you not having experts in a particular set of technology.
Don't mix -- whatever you do, stick with the platform. If you go .NET, MSSQL is going to work better with the data providers (or things like Linq-to-SQL). If you decide to do PHP, then use MySQL as everyone else uses it and you'll encounter less resistance. If you're not inventing stuff on the technical side, don't become an edge case.
You should pick the platform first, then the language that is best for that platform (if there is any choice).
One thing you should consider is the labor pool, and labor pool cost, for specific platforms and languages. Human Resources can often get cost metrics, if you don't have ideas already.
In my town, for example, .NET platform is much more expensive per Software Engineer than open source, because the .NET developers have a higher rate (40% roughly). C# is a little higher rate than VB.NET, but also tends to bring more well rounded candidates.
Just to throw in something totally different: How about weblocks as a web framework? It uses Hunchentoot as a server, which can run either standalone or with Apache. This is all done in Common Lisp. Weblocks can use cl-sql as a backend store, which can connect to many different RDBMs (MySQL, PostgreSQL, Oracle, ODBC, SQLite).
Related
We are in the process of deciding a route to take for a new CRM system. We've had Salesforce come in and give us their pitch and the developers have had a little play with it, made it do a few things we need etc...
It's hard for us to get a good idea of the pros and cons until we start to develop with it and if you start, you are tied in to a year contract for X number of users and it's pretty expensive as it is..
So, my question. Who has developed for sales force platform? how did you find the experience? would you recommend it as a good solution? Should we just continue with our ruby/rails/mongo systems?
Thanks!
The good news is the amount of customization you can do via configuration is amazing. The out-of-box functionality is very strong and you get a pretty nice security model and reporting system included.
Having said that, when you do need to do custom development beyond what the configuration can support, the pain can start;
-APEX is the most frustrating (modern?) language I have ever worked with.
-Deployment/Migration can be slow and painful (some things cannot be migrated, e.g. Approval processes)
-APEX is a rather immature language missing much of the concepts of .net or java
-Debugging is messy (log actually gets truncated at a certain length, no stepping)
Having said all that, SalesForce.com is a very strong CRM - 90% of the custom work you'll want to do will be really smooth and fast, the remainder will be extremely painful.
I am new in Sybase and Power Builder.
What are the best references and web resources to learn them in a useful and fast way ?
For now, I use http://www.sybase.com as my base reference.
Does anyone know good and practical tutorials for Power Builder V.12 .Net ?
From Where I can download a complete version of it and use it for building my application ?
I know the data window is the magical part in Power Builder and I need to know how to create and use a professional data window and how to make interaction and pass paramters between them and also how to dispaly different views like Master-Detail relationship and Tree-Sturcture or List-Structure and so on.
I would like to know the information I need to build a rapid web and database application plus customzing and editing the existing desktop application.
There is a 45 trial version of Powerbuilder which you can download from here:
http://response.sybase.com/forms/PB12Eval
Sybase's books that come with Powerbuilder are fairly comprehensive and quite a good way to get started.
http://infocenter.sybase.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.sybase.help.infocenter.pb.12.1/doc/html/title.html
I can't help with Powerbuilder but Rob Verschoor's Sypron.nl is the place to pick up Sybase information - there's loads in there from common "gotachas" to quizzes. His quick reference is terrific and well worth investing in.
Well, it all depends on how much experience you already have (not counting Sybase & PB).
Then there is the issue that app development and Db design are completely different disciplines: people who are good at one are rarely good at the other. Assuming you are the app developer, hire a good modeller/DBA. Product manuals are for reference only; you cannot learn how to code; put an app together; what code segments should be deployed where; best practice; etc from them.
To take even reasonable advantage of the DataWindow, you need a good Database (normalised, genuinely relational, security, etc), AND reasonable experience handling the client/server model (send SQL batch to server; receive & process result set).
You need a good PFC Library. The lib that comes with PB is fat as, and very slow. The first thing we do is strip that down, and create our own, to reduce .pbl size and increase speed.
Last but not least, a good handle on stored proc and Transaction rules. That requirement is true for any app, not just Sybase/Pb.
It sort of depends on what you want to do. PB12 comes with 2 IDEs -- PB12.NET is for creating WPF applications in .NET. PB12 Classic is for creating traditional PB applications as well as WinForm and WebForm .NET type applications.
There are some videos available on PB (some free, some paid)
Yakov Werde has a video titled "Essential PowerBuilder Series" that's about $700. You can see a free preview of it here.
Sybase has some free videos and tutorials here.
Also, there are some older PowerBuilder books like "PowerBuilder 9 Advanced Client/Server Development" that may help you. They're a little dated and don't cover any of the .NET stuff, but a lot of the basics are still the same.
The information you are looking for has always been somewhat of a challenge to find. Without all the corporate training I'm not sure how I would have learned as quickly.
If you are like me then learning by example is probably the best way. I'd go to codeplex and get yourself a working (and well designed) application to learn by example.
Also, believe it or not, I have learned a thing or two by reading the online documentation. Considering you are working with a new version of PB you've got your work cut out for you there isn't much out there. You may contact me if you have specific questions, if I have time then I would be happy to help a fellow developer.
I'm going to create a fairly large (from my point of view anyway) web project with a friend. We will create a site with roads and other road related info.
Our calculations is that we will have around 100k items in our database. Each item will contain some information like location, name etc. (about 30 thing each). We are counting on having a few hundred thousand unique visitors per month.
The 100k items and their locations (that will be searchable) will be the main part of the page but we will also have some articles, comments, news and later on some more social functions (accounts, forums, picture uploads etc.).
We were going to use Google AppEngine to develop our project since it is really scalable and free (at least for a while). But I'm actually starting to doubt that AppEngine is right for us. It seems to be for webbapps and not sites like ours.
Which system (language/framework etc.) would you guys recommend us to use? It doesn't really mater if we know the language since before (we like learning new stuff) but it would be good if it's something that is future proof.
I think that GAE can do the job. Google claims that Google App Engine is able to handle 5 million visitors for free and you will have to start paying only if you exceed their free quota.
It's also pretty easy to get started. If you don't have experience on administrating websites and choose a regular hosting service, you will have to worry about several things that you don't even imagine now.
My only concern would be with respect of the kind of data and queries you will have to do, since it does not have a relational database. Anyway, there is an open source project for GAE, called GeoModel that gives GAE the ability to do complex geo spacial queries, like proximity fetch. Have a look at their tutorial and the demo app.
About your impression that GAE was intended only for small web apps, there are a couple of CMS that run on it.
Good luck!
If once of your concerns is scalability, and you don't want to depend on expensive or commercial tools, I would recommend that you take a look at this tech stack:
Erlang - A programming language designed for concurrency and distribution.
Nitrogen - An Erlang web framework with a lot of cool stuff, like transparent AJAX.
NoSQL scalable databases, such as CouchDB or Riak - Save the the hassle of SQL code and are more scalable than plain MySQL. Both has direct native Erlang API.
To be honest, I don't know if this tool set is your cup of tea; These are not mainstream solutions. I just suggest these to everyone who ask about size-sensitive web applications.
All serious web frameworks will provide you with what you need. The real issues (for example scalability) might be tackled in a different way depending on what you use, but you wont be limited if you choose a well-known one. The choice of database system might be more important for that (sql vs nosql), even if both of those will do fine too.
It's all about
knowing how to use
enjoying to use
the tool(s) you've chosen.
In either case, name-dropping some suggestions:
Rails (Ruby)
Django (Python)
Nitrogen (Erlang)
ASP.NET MVC (C#)
And please note, if you really want to learn everything from the bottom, you'd be fine with any of these (or one of the other gazillion out there). But if you want to perform your best, choose one that supports a language you know well or uses techniques/tools you have experience of etc. Think twice about how you value this is fun and we learn a lot against we want to be productive and do a really good job.
In my experience, this has been a contentious issue between "backend" (database developer) and "frontend" guys (application developer, client and server side).
There have been many heated pub discussions on this subject.
I just want to know is it just people have different mindsets, or lazy to learn more and feel comfortable in what they know, or something else.
I might re-phrase the question: why do (some) application developers think they can do "database stuff" without actually bothering to understand it properly? Whereas database developers do not (in general) assume they can write a good application without some training and experience!
It is about levels of abstraction. A database is the lowest level of abstraction in a typical business application (software-wise). It is much more likely that a developer working on an outer layer of the abstraction would have knowledge of an inner layer than a developer in an inner layer would know about the outer layer.
This is because inner layers of abstraction best perform when they are ignorant of the outer layers who depend on them.
So a designer in the presentation layer of a website may know a bit about the server-side code they depend on because they interact with it. But the developer working on the server does not need to know anything about design at all.
I would say it's on a need to know basis. Applications developers often need to know how to connect to databases, add records, delete records etc... This is taken further with new technologies such as LINQ where developers can write database queries within their actual code.
Database developers on the other hand only really need to know how to write database queries as that is their job and probably won't need to worry about the code at application level.
Because programmers very often must understand and interact with databases to do their job, but DBAs very often don't need to do any programming (outside of the DBMS) to do their jobs.
I believe it stems from the fact that programming in sql looks easy, and to get started you have to have a small amount of knowledge (Really for a programmer to learn SELECT * FROM Table is pretty easy). Application programming is not the same way. It becomes very complex in a small amount of time, and that discourages a lot of people. Now I am not saying that database people are any less intelligent it is just what they do looks easier than building applications.
If you develop applications, then the chances are, that sooner or later, you'll have to connect an app to a back-end.
The opposite is not as true.
I think it stems from necessity. If you consider the roles of each person, a programmer needs to to database related stuff far more than database workers need to do programming tasks.
From my experience, having developed both "databases" and "applications" (following your nomenclature...), I guess there's a big difference in state management.
Properly designed databases are always in a "clean" state, and every transaction keeps this consistency. So when developing a database, you have to very clearly specify your data abstractions into tables and which updates are legal and so on.
I've found that most application developers (myself included :)) do a very sloppy job in keeping this consistent state in the application. Any non-trivial interface has many more possible states to manage than a modest database, and it's not as easy to make sure it's always in a clean state. It's also harder to analyze every possible sequence of steps that users will perform.
From my experience, the application developers don't do all the database stuff. Consider all the administration that is related to the databse, backups, replication, etc.
A typical DBA (at least on most of the projects I've been involved to) takes care about everything that is related to project databases - all administration, cooperates with application developers on performance tuning, gives advices about SQL used by the app, does some of the stored procs coding, creates (or, at least reviews and consults) physical DB designs, etc.
So, aren't the database guys "lazy", or "fine with what they already know" just from an application developer's perspective? I'm an app developer myself and there is a whole lot of things that I just don't know about the DBs we're using on our projects.
Part of my education ensured I got a decent understanding of how Databases work. I went into the field expecting to do database work, and a lot of it. I'm a web app guy; it comes with the territory I guess.
My two jobs as a developer have been at two shops that would best be described as tiny (2 people myself included, and then just me) and tiny (3 developers, briefly having a fourth). I have not observed an immediate business need for, nor worked anywhere that had the resources to employ a dedicated DB guy. I can envision some scenarios where that would change (including a new job :P).
As to the rest, I agree that abstraction is also a factor and as developers we're way up on top/outside looking in. I can't imagine doing web app development without DB skills, and I consider Sql/DB Management to be both an important tool and an area I need to stay sharp in.
I'll add that I treat the database side as its own field. There's skills that translate between the two, but there's a lot of specialized knowledge I need to acquire to get better at it, and that being a good programmer doesn't necessarily mean I'm doing a good job on the back end either (fortunately, I'm not a good programmer ;) ). Also, I'm pretty sure that's what she said.
2 reasons:
DB Vendors facilitate bad SQL, and
SQL is hidden from view while
application UI is front and center.
Most naive developers think SQL is a procedural language and write it as such because vendors ensure that the tools exist so that they can do so. DBAs know that good SQL is set-oriented and has optimization principles that are totally different from those involved in application programming.
The visibility aspect makes it so the application developers can write bad SQL against a database and get it to perform in a marginal way, and no one ever sees quite how bad it is. When a DBA writes an application, there are immediate critiques on its appearance and behavior because it's directly visible to the end user.
Good question. Actually why developers do Database Stuff because where no dedicated Database guys then developers have to do that. But a company have Database Guys also have Development guys.
:) what is your idea ?
Our company has a point of sale system with many extras, such as ordering and receiving functionality, sales and order history etc. Our main issue is that the system was not designed properly from the ground up, so it takes too long to make fixes and handle requests from our customers. Also, the current technology we are using (Progress database, Progress 4GL for the language) incurs quite a bit of licensing expenses on our customers due to mutli-user license fees for database connections etc.
After a lot of discussion it is looking like we will probably start over from scratch (while maintaining the current product at least for the time being). We are looking for a couple of things:
Create the system with a nice GUI front end (it is currently CHUI and the application was not built in a way that allows us to redesign the front end... no layering or separation of business logic and gui...shudder).
Create the system with the ability to modularize different functionality so the product doesn't have to include all features. This would keep the cost down for our current customers that want basic functionality and a lower price tag. The bells and whistles would be available for those that would want them.
Use proper design patterns to make the product easy to add or change any part at any time (i.e. change the database or change the front end without needing to rewrite the application or most of it). This is a problem today because the Progress 4GL code is directly compiled against the database. Small changes in the database requires lots of code recompiling.
Our new system will be Linux based, with a possibility of a client application providing functionality from one or more windows boxes.
So what I'm looking for is any suggestions on which database and/or framework or programming language(s) someone might recommend for this sort of product. Anyone that has experience in this field might be able to point us in the right direction or even have some ideas of what to avoid. We have considered .NET and SQL Express (we don't need an enterprise level DB), but that would limit us to windows (as far as I know anyway). I have heard of Mono for writing .NET code in a Linux environment, but I don't know much about it yet. We've also considered a Java and MySql based implementation.
To summarize we are looking to do the following:
Keep licensing costs down on the technology we will use to develop the product (Oracle, yikes! MySQL, nice.)
Deliver a solution that is easily maintainable and supportable.
A solution that has a component capable of running on "old" hardware through a CHUI front end. (some of our customers have 40+ terminals which would be a ton of cash in order to convert over to a PC).
Suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks
[UPDATE]
I should note that we are currently performing a total cost analysis. This question is intended to give us a couple of "educated" options to look into to include in or analysis. Anyone who could share experiences/suggestions about client/server setups would be appreciated (not just those who have experience with point of sale systems... that would just be a bonus).
[UPDATE]
For anyone who is interested, we ended up going with Microsoft Dynamics NAV, LS Retail (a plugin for the point of sale and various other things) and then did some (and are currently working on) customization work on top of that. This setup gave us the added benefit of having a fully integrated g/l system, which our current system lacked.
Java for language (or Scala if you want to be "bleeding edge", depending on how you plan to support it and what your developers are like it might be better, but also worse)
H2 for database
Swing for GUI
Reason: Free, portable and pretty standard.
Update: Missed the part where the system should be a client-server setup. My assumption was that the database and client should run on the same machine.
I suggest you first research your constraints a bit more - you made a passing reference to a client using a particular type of terminal - this may limit your options, unless the client agrees to upgrade.
You need to do a lot more legwork on this. It's great to get opinions from web forums, but we can't possibly know your environment as well as you do.
My broad strokes advice would be to aim for technology that is widely used. This way, expertise on the platform is cheaper than "niche" technologies, and it will be easier to get help if you hit a brick wall. Of course, following this advice may not be possible if you have non-negotiable technology already in place at customers.
My second suggestion would be to complete a full project plan, with detailed specs and proper cost estimates, before going with the "rewrite from scratch" option. Right now, you're saying that it would be cheaper to rewrite the system than maintain it, and you don't really know how much it would cost to re-write.
I suggest you use browser for the UI.
Organize your application as a web application.
There are tons of options for the back-end. You can use Java + MySQL. Java backend will save you from windows/linux debate as it will run on both platforms. You won't have any licensing cost for both Java and MySQL. (Edit: Definitely there are a lot of others languages that have run-times for both linux & windows including PHP, Ruby, Python etc)
If you go this route, you may also want to consider Google Web Toolkit (GWT) for creating the browser based front-end in a modular fashion.
One word of caution though. Browsers can be pesky when it comes to memory management. In our experience, this was the most significant challenge in doing browser based POS You may want to checkout Adobe Flex that runs in browser but might be more civil in its memory management.
What is CHUI? Character-UI, as in VT terminals? Or even 3270 style?
It sounds like you need a 3-tier system - the database backend, a middle-layer that runs the bulk of the back-end business processes, and a front-end layer for the CHUI / GUI / data-gateway.
All three layers can reside on one machine; or you can distribute the tiers out to various servers. The front-end layer would control the actual terminals, whether they are VT-terminals, or a web-browser, or a custom-written 'client' application.
Make sure you have considered the hardware needs here -- are you going to have barcode scanners, cash drawers, POS debit/credit terminals, et cetra? If you are using a standard browser, it might be hard to reliably integrate those items. (At the very least, you're likely going to have to write special applets to handle them.)
Finally, consider the possibility of a thin-client technology on Windows. It greatly simplifies system management, since you only have to upgrade the software centrally. Thin-client PC's are cheap -- sub $200.
Golden Code Development (see www.goldencode.com) has a technology that does automated conversion of Progress 4GL (the schema and code... the entire application) to a Java application with a relational database backend (e.g. PostgreSQL). They currently support a very complete CHUI environment and they do refactor the code. For example, the conversion separates the UI, the data model and the business logic into separate Java classes. The entire result is a drop-in replacement that is compatible with the original (users don't need retraining, processes don't need to be modified, the data is migrated too). This is possible because they provide an application server and a set of runtime classes that provide that compatibility. The result of the automated conversion is not something that needs further editing before you can compile and run it. True terminal support is included so hardware terminals still work (it requires a small JNI library to access NCURSES from Java). All the rest of the code in the runtime is pure Java. No Progress Software Corp technology is used in the resulting system and it runs on Linux.
At least one converted system is already in production, running a 24 by 7 mission critical environment. It is a converted ERP system that their mid-sized pilot customer uses to run their entire business.