Is there a general rule of thumb to follow when storing web application data to know what database backend should be used? Is the number of hits per day, number of rows of data, or other metrics that I should consider when choosing?
My initial idea is that the order for this would look something like the following (but not necessarily, which is why I'm asking the question).
Flat Files
BDB
SQLite
MySQL
PostgreSQL
SQL Server
Oracle
It's not quite that easy. The only general rule of thumb is that you should look for another solution when the current one can't keep up anymore. That could include using different software (not necessarily in any globally fixed order), hardware or architecture.
You will probably get a lot more benefit out of caching data using something like memcached than switching to another random storage backend.
If you think you are going to ever need one of the heavyweights (SqlServer, Oracle), you should start with one of those at the beginning. Data migrations are extremely difficult. In the long run it will cost you less to just start at the top and stay there.
I think you're being overly specific in your rankings. You can pretty much start with flat files and the like for very small data sets, go up to something like DBM for slightly bigger ones that don't require SQL-like syntax, and go to some kind of SQL database after that.
But who wants to do all that rewriting? If the application will benefit from access to joins, stored procedures, triggers, foreign key validation, and the like--just use a SQL database regardless of the dataset size.
Which one should depend more on the client's existing installations and what DBA skills are available than on the amount of data you're holding.
In other words, the size of your database is far from the only consideration, and maybe not the most important one.
There is no blanket answer to this, but ALMOST always, using flat files is not a good idea. You have to parse through them (i suppose) and they do not scale well. Starting with a proper database, like Oracle or SQL Server (or MySQL, Postgres if you are looking for free options) is a good idea. For very little overhead, you will save yourself a lot of effort and headache later on. They also allow you to structure your data in a non-stupid fashion, leaving you free to think of WHAT you will do with the data rather than HOW you will be getting it in/out.
It really depends on your data, and how you intend to use it. At one of my previous positions, we used Postgres due to the native geo-location and timezone extensions which existed because it allowed us to manage our data using polygonal datatypes. For us, we needed to do that, and we also wanted to use stored procedures, views and the like.
Now, another place I worked at used MySQL simply because the data was normalized, standard row by row data.
SQL Server, for a long time, had a 4gb database limit (see SQL Server 2000), but despite that limitation it remains a very stable platform for small to medium applications for which the old data is purged.
Now, from working with Oracle and SQL Server 05/08, all I can tell you is that if you want the creme of the crop for stability, scalability and flexibility, then these two are your best bet. For enterprise applications, I strongly recommend them (merely because that's what we use where I work now).
Other things to consider:
Language integration (ASP.NET session storage, role management, etc.)
Query types (Select, Update, Delete) [Although this is more of a schema design issue, not a DBMS issue)
Data storage requirements
Your application's utilization of the database is the most critical ones. Mainly what queries are used most often (SELECT, INSERT or UPDATE)?
Say if you use SQLite, it is gears for smaller application but for "web" application you might a bigger one like MySQL or SQL Server.
The way you write scripts and your web application platforms also matters. If you're developing on a Microsoft platform, then SQL Server is a better alternative.
Typically, I go with what is commonly accepted by whichever framework I am using. So, if I'm doing .NET => SQL Server, Python (via Django or Pylons) => MySQL or SQLite.
I almost never use flat files though.
There is more to choosing an RDBMS solution that just "back end horsepower". The ability to have commitment control, for example, so you can roll back a failed transaction is one. reason.
Unless you are in the megatransaction rate application, most database engines would be adequate - so it becomes a question of how much you want to pay for the software, whether it runs on the hardware and operating system environment you want, and what expertise you have in managing that software.
That progression sounds painful. If you're going to include MS products (especially the for-pay SQL Server) in there anywhere, you may as well use the whole stack, since you only have to pay for the last of these:
SQL Server Compact -> SQL Server Express -> SQL Server Enterprise (clustered).
If you target your app at SQL Server Compact initially, all your SQL code is guaranteed to scale up to the next version without modification. If you get bigger than SQL Server Enterprise, then congratulations. That's what they call a good problem to have.
Also: go back and check the SO podcasts. I believe they talked about this briefly.
This question depends on your situation really.
If you have control over the server you're deploying to and you can install whatever services you need, then the time to install a MySql or MSSQL Express server and code against an existing database framework VERSUS coding against flat file structure is not worth the effort of considering.
What about FireBird? Where would that fit into that list?
And lets not forget the requirements that the "customer" of your solution must also have in place. If your writing a commercial application for a small companies, then Oracle might not be a good choice... but if your writing a customized solution for a large enterprise which must share data among multiple campuses, and has a good sized IT department then the decision of Oracle vs Sql Server would come down to what does the customer most likely already have deployed.
Data migration nowdays isn't that bad since we have those great tools from Embarcadero, so I would instead let the customer needs drive the decision.
If you have the option SQL Server is a good choice from the word go, predominantly because you have access to solid procedures and functions and the database backup facilities are totally reliable. Wrapping up as much as your logic as you can inside the database itself (rather than in whatever language you are using) helps security and performance - indeed there's an good argument to be made for always using procedures for insert/update logic as these make you invulnerable to injection attacks.
If I have the choice the only time I'd consider MySQL in preference is with a large, fairly simple, database predominantly used for read access. This isn't to decry MySQL which has improved markedly of late and I happily use if I don't have the choice, but for more complex systems with update/insert activity MSSQL is generally the superior option.
I think your list is subjective but I will play your game.
Flat Files
BDB
SQLite
MySQL
PostgreSQL
SQL Server
Oracle
Teradata
Related
I have a client that currently uses a local Advantage Database on their PC along with an application. They are thinking of upscaling their setup to have multiple applications running communicating with a database server i.e/a client-server environment.
They are now considering the best database for this approach. They are looking at the Advantage Database Server product in comparison to SQL Server Express(the application does not warrant a full SQL Server at this stage).
Obviously SQL Server is a more well known product probably with more support but I was hoping you could give me some opinions and thoughts on what you think the best product would be in terms of performance, stability and support.
One thing to note although not directly relevant is that the application is currently written in Delphi and there could be a move to C# to bring it up to date.
The migration from a local Advantage Database to a client/server Advantage database is a very simple process. It simply involves changing the connection properties within the program. There are no other coding changes that need to be done.
Advantage has a great support team and has been in development for over 15 years. The stability and support are at least equal to SQL Server.
Advantage also provides a .NET Data Provider which would allow for C# development.
I have developed for both SQL Server and Advantage. They each have their pros and cons (although now I favor Advantage).
Given your situation, however, this decision appears to be a no-brainer: Advantage Database Server. Why? It's already done!
My Advantage programs run, unmodified, against the same database either locally or remotely. All I change is the connection string. I'm not saying that your customer's code won't have to be changed. I am saying it is likely to be trivial. Compare that to the greater effort involved in switching to a whole new database engine.
In general I'm a SQL Server person all the way. I work with id daily and have for almost ten years, but in your situatuion, it seems silly to consider moving to a new database when there is aclear upgrade path to do what you want using the backend you already have. It would be much less work and far less likely to introduce new bugs to stay within the same database family.
ADS wins hands down. It is maintenance-free. It is extremely reliable. It is extremely fast. It is extremely scalable. SQL is very well supported, and the ADS newsgroups are responsive (answers within hours instead of days on SQL server fora) and well-informed. I have been using ADS since 1991 and it has never gone wrong! My users are incredibly demanding and to be able to turn round solutions within hours instead of days, is both a joy to me and a business incentive to the end users and clients. Deployment is gentle, fast and simple. Platform support is better than SQL server. 64-bit server deployment abounds and is well-grounded, transparent and reliable. 64-bit clients are coming in the next version (10). My experience with ADS is wholly positive, whereas my ventures with SQL server have been fraught with difficulties, idiosyncrasies and workrounds!
I happen to be a support rep for Advantage so when you say "Obviously SQL Server is a more well known product probably with more support" I have to argue a bit.
As Chris stated switching from Advantage Local Server to the the Advantage Remote (client/server) Server is a pretty painless process - they designed it that way.
Install the Advantage Database Server on a machine where the data is located (not a requirement but it's recommended). You can get a free trial here: http://marketing.ianywhere.com/forms/ADS91-30-Day
Within the application there will be TAdsConnection component(s) - change the TAdsConnection.ConnectionType to 'REMOTE' (http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/dz/webhelp/Advantage9.1/mergedProjects/ade/sec7/connectiontype.htm)
You can specify the path (TAdsConnection.ConnectPath) from the clients in a couple different ways but the recommended is:
\\server:6262\mydata
http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/dz/webhelp/Advantage9.1/mergedProjects/ade/sec7/connectpath_tadsconnection.htm
Note: 6262 is the port used by default (may need to add an exception to the firewall). Also if your application uses a data dictionary the path would include the name of the .ADD file (e.g. \\server:6262\mydata\mydd.add)
Hope this helps!
I have to make a decision of which database server to use for my next project, but the simple decision to use MySQL like almost all the projects I did is harder now, because I expect very much records.
The database will store a user list, some other irrelevant tables, and the last one, some user-collected data. Let's say, if I have 6000 users responding to a quiz about each other. Simple math shows that from those users, if each one completes the quiz about everyone (and in my project that is 99% sure that will happen) I'll end up with 35.99million records(they will exclude themselves and in this particular situation the operation is 6000*5999). Unfortunately 6000 maybe is a small number, the real one growing day by day.
What to choose? MySQL and maybe if things go well and the project grows to expand it in a cluster? PostgreSQL, MSSQL? Oracle?
I've read about all of them, each one has it's pros and cons, but still don't know what to choose. The advantage of MySQL and PostgreSQL is of course, the starting price of $0 which is pretty nice in a usual self-funded startup.
Any opinions, pieces of advice? If you encountered this situation in your experience as developers, I'd love to hear from you.
These days, free isn't something that differenciates between databases any more. Both Oracle and SQL Server have free versions, but the limitations is resources - 4 GB database, RAM & single CPU utilization. Millions of records is not a concern - it's what datatypes you're using.
I saw the OPs comment about not liking MS software - that's your prerogative, but using the free versions of either Oracle or SQL Server do benefit from seamless transition to upscale versions of the respective database.
Personally, my choice would be either Oracle or SQL Server because of IMHO, real feature considerations like hierarchical query support, subquery factoring/CTE, packages (long before I get concerned with functions/procedures), full text searching, xml support, etc.
MySQL will handle 35 million records no problem. Worry about scalability when you get there. You can easily add raid hard disks backing your database tables, and if you really start getting big you can get a compellant SAN that will scream... Don't worry about the DB engine as much as the underlying hardware.. MySQL rocks for us with millions of records.
I've had no problems handling tables as large as 36,000,000 rows on MySQL and Oracle.
Just be sure that you index the proper columns, run EXPLAINs for your queries, and maintain proper design principles.
Most of the truly large scale web properties use a distributed key-value store. That said, 35 million is large, but not that large. With most modern databases, your main two scaling worries should be throughput and what happens when no single box can contain your entire database anymore. And both of these problems can be solved to some degree for any database you choose to use. (Caching, replication, sharding, etc.)
Use MySQL until you can't anymore. At that point, you ought to be rolling in dough anyways and you now have a very desirable problem.
Use MySQL as it's free and you have experience with it.
Besides in my opinion it matters more on how you design the tables than which database you use.
35 million records can be easily handled by MS SQL Server (assuming proper database design, indices, etc.). You can start with the free SQL Server Express edition and later, if you need, you can upgrade to the full version which supports clustering, etc.
SQL Server Express does have some limitations - single CPU, 1 GB memory, max 4 GB database size and a few other things. I'm not sure how quickly these limitations will become a problem but you can always move to the full version when you run into them.
MySQL(i) & Postgre
0$ of costs
large community
many tutorials
well documentated
MSSQL
You can get "money" from MS if you promote that you are using MSSQL (secret information from some companies I worked for)
MS tools work very well
Complete tool set from C# IDE over .NET lib to Windows Server 2003
Oracle
Professional and commercial provider
Used by many large companies (I also heard about Blizzard (World of Warcraft) using Oracle)
- expensive
The final decision depends on the very special requirements of your project.
Make yourself a quick list of things , that ARE IMPORTANT for your project (e.g. quick performed queries) and look up which Database pros are matching the most to your requirements.
Everything is about design. SQL Database are some kind of cars, you just have to know which component has to be placed here and which there.
Make a clear design and you won't struggle with any of them.
May be you can test Firebird
Blog post about big Firebird database here
MySQL licence is here (not allways free).
Postgresql and Firebird are free.
First of all, don't think about performance. Premature optimization being the root of all evil and all that. You can always throw more hardware and/or tuning at it later.
All of the mentioned should perform nicely if tuned/maintained correctly. I'd focus on manageability and familiarity. IMHO open source databases excels on manageability (perhaps not the best GUIs, but the CLI has been my home for a long long time).
And if the database becomes the bottleneck, why limit yourself to those choices? How about a key-value distributed database? Or perhaps serialize data directly to disk? Storing data outside of a RDBMS, while often frowned upon, might be the correct path. Or simply use the common route of denormalization.
Always remember not to optimize prematurely.
As far as opinions go (since you specifically asked for it) I favor open source databases, specifically PostgreSQL. It's rock solid, fast and very well-featured. And even with (relatively) large datasets it has performed superbly on mediocre hardware (some tuning involved, of course, but you can't skip that step no matter which db you end up choosing).
It seems like the goal of a lot of ORM tools and custom data access layers (DAO pattern, etc.) is to abstract the database to the point where you could supposedly swap out the entire database system with minimal work.
Following the common DAL patterns is usually a good idea in code, but it seems like it would never be minimal work to swap out a database. (Cost, training, data migration, etc.)
Does anyone have any experience with swapping out one database for another in a large system, and dealing with the implications in code? Is it worth it to worry about abstracting the actual database from your code?
Question 1: Does anyone have any experience with
swapping out one database for another
in a large system, and dealing with
the implications in code?
Yes we tried it. Our customer is using a large MS Access based Delphi client server application. After about five years we considered switching to SQL Server. We analyzed the problem and concluded that swapping the database would be very costly and provide only a few advantages. Customer decided not to swap the database. The application is still running fine and the customer is still happy.
Note that:
MS Access is only being used for data storage and report generation.
The server application ensures that MS Access is only being accessed on the server. Normal multi-user MS Access applications will transfer large chunks of the Access database over the network - resulting in slow and unreliable database functionality. This is not the case for this application. Client <> Server <> MS Access. Only the server application communicates with the MS Access database. Actually the Server has exclusive access to the MS Access database. No other computer can open to the MS Access database. Conclusion: MS Access is being used as a true RDBMS, Relational DataBase Management System - please no flaming about MS Access being inferior and unstable - it has been running fine for more than 10 years.
The most important issues you will have to consider:
SQL statements: (SELECT, UPDATE, DELETE, INSERT, CREATE TABLE) and make sure they would be compatible with the SQL database. It's amazing how much all the RDBMS differ in the details (date formats, number formats, search formats, string formats, join syntax, create table syntax, stored procedures, user defined functions, (auto) primary keys, etc.)
Report generation: Depending on your database you might be using a different reporting tool. Our customer has over 200 complex reports. Converting all these reports is very time consuming.
Performance: all RDBMS have different performances in different environments. Normally performance optimalisations are very much RDBMS dependent.
Costs: the costs of tools, developers, server and user licenses varies greatly. It ranges from free to very expensive. Free does not mean cheap and expensive does not always equate to good. A cost/value comparison will have to be made.
Experience: making the best use of your RDBMS requires experience. If you have to develop for an "unknown" RDBMS your productivity will suffer.
Question 2: Is it worth it to worry about
abstracting the actual database from
your code?
Yes. In an ideal world, swapping a database would just be adjusting the data connection string. In the real world this is not possible because all databases are different. They all have tables and SQL support but the differences are in the details. If you can keep the differences of the databases shielded through abstraction - please do so. Make a list of the databases you need to support. Check the selected database systems for the differences. Provide centralized code to handle the differences. Support one RDBMS and provide stubs for future support of other RDBMS.
I disagree that the purpose is to be able to swap out databases, and I think you are correct in showing some suspicion about ORMs leading towards that goal.
However, I would still use an ORM, as it abstracts away the details of data access. Isn't this the goal of object oriented programming? Keep your concerns separated.
I think the primary use case for database abstraction (via ORM tools) is to be able to ship a product that works with multiple database brands. I believe it's a rarer occurrence for a company to switch between database vendors, but that's still one of the use cases.
I've worked jobs where we started out using MySQL for monetary reasons (think a startup) and, one we started making money, wanted to switch to Oracle. We didn't end up making the switch, but it was nice to have the option.
Still, ORM tools are not a completely leak-less abstractions and I know our migration still would have been painful and costly. It totally depends on what you are building, but it has been my experience that -- for performance reasons, usually -- you end up either working around your ORM solution or exploiting vendor-specific features at some point.
The only time I've seen a database switch was from HSQL during early development to Oracle as the project progressed. The ORM made this easy.
I often use the DAO pattern to swap out data services (from a database to web service or to swap a web service to a test stub).
For ORM I don't think the goal is to enable you to switch databases - it is to hide you from the complexities of different database implementations and removing the need to worry about the fine details of translating from relational to object represenations of your data.
By having someone smart write an ORM that handles caching, only updates fields that have changed, groups updates, etc I don't need to. Although in the cases where I need something special I can still revert to SQL if I want.
Let's say I wanted to have an application that could easily switch the DB at the back-end.
I'm mostly thinking of SQL Server as the primary back-end, but with the flexibility to go another DB engine. Firebird and PostGreSQL seem to have (from my brief wikipedia excursion) the most in common w/ SQL Server (plus they are free).
How similar would the DB setup, access, queries, etc.. be for Firebird, PostGreSQL and MS SQL Server?
Unfortunately, SQL varies widely across providers. It's almost impossible to write all but the most trivial SQL to run on a number of RDBMS - and then you're into lowest common denominator territory. Far better to use an abstraction layer to handle at least the connection to the database (inc. access, sending queries), and either an ORM to handle the SQL itself or per-provider SQL.
If you want to look into how they vary - good examples are auto-incrementing ids and obtaining the ID of the last inserted record.
I worked on one project where it was an absolute requirement to support many databases, including at least Access, SQL Server and Oracle.
So I know that it can be done. Mostly DML (SELECT,UPDATE,INSERT...) is the same and certainly we didn't have huge problems making it work across all of the databases - just occasional annoyances. MySQL was the exception at that time as it simply wasn't capable enough.
We found most differences in the DDL, but with the right architecture (which we had), it wasn't difficult to fix this.
The only thing that caused us a problem was generating unique id's - autoincrement is non-standard. Fortuantely in a database of around 40 tables there were only a few places where unique ID's were need (good DB design). In the end we generate the unique ID in code, and handle any clashes (everything in transactions).
It did make things easier because we had avoided using autoincrement for ID fields, it's harder to think of unique keys - but better in the long run.
Well, CRUD stuff should be the same everywhere, but if you build anything complex, you'll probably want to use triggers and stored procedures and that's where compatibility becomes low. Writing a DBMS-agnostic application usually means moving most of the business logic outside of database, so having a 3-tier application is, IMHO, a must in such case.
Alternatively, you could use some wrapper library that works like abstraction layer, but I'm yet to see one that is able to do the job correctly over a range of DBMS-es. Of course, that is also dependent on the programming language you use.
As pointed out by the other answers, DBMS vary wildly once you go beyond basic SELECT/INSERT stuff (and sometimes even there).
We also have to maintain compatibiliy across several DBMS. In my opinion the best approach is usually to use some kind of compatibility layer. We have an in-house DB abstraction library, but there are several tools available.
In particular, it might pay to look at popular ORMs (Hibernate, nHibernate etc.). They usually offer DB-independence as a kind of side effect. At least Hibernate also has a special query language that will automatically be translated to SQL for the DBMS you are using.
We have literally 100's of Access databases floating around the network. Some with light usage and some with quite heavy usage, and some no usage whatsoever. What we would like to do is centralise these databases onto a managed database and retain as much as possible of the reports and forms within them.
The benefits of doing this would be to have some sort of usage tracking, and also the ability to pay more attention to some of the important decentralised data that is stored in these apps.
There is no real constraints on RDBMS (Oracle, MS SQL server) or the stack it would run on (LAMP, ASP.net, Java) and there obviously won't be a silver bullet for this. We would like something that can remove the initial grunt work in an automated fashion.
We upsize (either using the upsize wizard or by hand) users to SQL server. It's usually pretty straight forward. Replace all the access tables with linked tables to the sql server and keep all the forms/reports/macros in access. The investment in access isn't lost and the users can keep going business as usual. You get reliability of sql server and centralized backups. Keep in mind - we’ve done this for a few large access databases, not hundreds. I'd do a pilot of a few dozen and see how it works out.
UPDATE:
I just found this, the sql server migration assitant, it might be worth a look:
http://www.microsoft.com/sql/solutions/migration/default.mspx
Update: Yes, some refactoring will be necessary for poorly designed databases. As for how to handle access sprawl? I've run into this at companies with lots of technical users (engineers esp., are the worst for this... and excel sprawl). We did an audit - (after backing up) deleted any databases that hadn't been touched in over a year. "Owners" were assigned based the location &/or data in the database. If the database was in "S:\quality\test_dept" then the quality manager and head test engineer had to take ownership of it or we delete it (again after backing it up).
Upsizing an Access application is no magic bullet. It may be that some things will be faster, but some types of operations will be real dogs. That means that an upsized app has to be tested thoroughly and performance bottlenecks addressed, usually by moving the data retrieval logic server-side (views, stored procedures, passthrough queries).
It's not really an answer to the question, though.
I don't think there is any automated answer to the problem. Indeed, I'd say this is a people problem and not a programming problem at all. Somebody has to survey the network and determine ownership of all the Access databases and then interview the users to find out what's in use and what's not. Then each app should be evaluated as to whether or not it should be folded into an Enterprise-wide data store/app, or whether its original implementation as a small app for a few users was the better approach.
That's not the answer you want to hear, but it's the right answer precisely because it's a people/management problem, not a programming task.
Oracle has a migration workbench to port MS Access systems to Oracle Application Express, which would be worth investigating.
http://apex.oracle.com
So? Dedicate a server to your Access databases.
Now you have the benefit of some sort of usage tracking, and also the ability to pay more attention to some of the important decentralised data that is stored in these apps.
This is what you were going to do anyway, only you wanted to use a different database engine instead of NTFS.
And now you have to force the users onto your server.
Well, you can encourage them by telling them that you aren't going to overwrite their data with old backups anymore, because now you will own the data, and you won't do that anymore.
Also, you can tell them that their applications will run faster now, because you are going to exclude the folder from on-access virus scanning (you don't do that to your other databases, which is why they are full of sql-injection malware, but these databases won't be exposed to the internet), and planning to turn packet signing off (you won't need that on a dedicated server: it's only for people who put their file-share on their domain-server).
Easy upgrade path, improved service to users, greater centralization and control for IT. Everyone's a winner.
Further to David Fenton's comments
Your administrative rule will be something like this:
If the data that is in the database is just being used by one user, for their own work (alone), then they can keep it in their own network share.
If the data that is in the database is for being used by more than one person (even if it is only two), then that database must go on a central server and go under IT's management (backups, schema changes, interfaces, etc.). This is because, someone experienced needs to coordinate the whole show or we will risk the time/resources of the next guy down the line.