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We're getting ready to build a new platform for our current system. Currently we install sql server express locally to all our clients and all their data is stored there. While the process works pretty good, it's still a pain to add columns/tables etc. We also want to have our data available outside of the local install. So we're moving to a central web based sql database and creating a web based application. Our new application will be a Silverlight 5, wcf ria services, mvvm, entity framework application
We've decided that either a web hosted sql server database or sql azure database are the way to go. However, I have no idea why I would choose one over the other. The limitations of azure don't seem to apply to us, but our application will be run on our current shared web host. Is it better to host the application on the same server as the database? Do we even know with shared web hosting that the server is on the same location as the app? There's also the marketing advantage of being 'in the cloud' which our clients love when we drop that word (they have no idea about anything technical, it's just a buzzword for them). I'm not too worried about the cost as I think both will ultimately be about the equivalent of each other.
I feel like I may be completely overthinking this and either will work, however I'd like to try and get the best solution for us and don't want to choose without getting some feedback.
In case it helps, our application is mostly dashboard/informational data. Mostly financial and trending data. It's almost entirely read only. Sometimes the data can get fairly large and we would be sending upwards of 50,000 rows of data to the application.
Thanks for any help/insight you can provide for me!
The main concerns I would have with using a SQL Azure DB from an application on your current shared web host would be
The effect of network latency: Depending on location, every time you do a DB round trip from your application to the SQL Azure DB you will incur a 50-100ms delay. If your application does lots of round trips, this will mount up. Often, if an application has been designed to work with a DB on the LAN (you use of local client DBs suggests this) the they tend to get "chatty" since network delays are very small on the LAN. You may find your application slows down significantly.
Security: You will have to open up the SQL Azure firewall to the IP address(es) that your application presents when querying. Depending on your host, it may be that this IP address is shared between several tenants. This would be a vulnerability.
If neither of these is a problem, then SQL Azure will provide a much lower management overhead (e.g. no need to patch etc.) and will give you very high reliability, especially in terms of the risk of data loss.
I have a client that currently uses a local Advantage Database on their PC along with an application. They are thinking of upscaling their setup to have multiple applications running communicating with a database server i.e/a client-server environment.
They are now considering the best database for this approach. They are looking at the Advantage Database Server product in comparison to SQL Server Express(the application does not warrant a full SQL Server at this stage).
Obviously SQL Server is a more well known product probably with more support but I was hoping you could give me some opinions and thoughts on what you think the best product would be in terms of performance, stability and support.
One thing to note although not directly relevant is that the application is currently written in Delphi and there could be a move to C# to bring it up to date.
The migration from a local Advantage Database to a client/server Advantage database is a very simple process. It simply involves changing the connection properties within the program. There are no other coding changes that need to be done.
Advantage has a great support team and has been in development for over 15 years. The stability and support are at least equal to SQL Server.
Advantage also provides a .NET Data Provider which would allow for C# development.
I have developed for both SQL Server and Advantage. They each have their pros and cons (although now I favor Advantage).
Given your situation, however, this decision appears to be a no-brainer: Advantage Database Server. Why? It's already done!
My Advantage programs run, unmodified, against the same database either locally or remotely. All I change is the connection string. I'm not saying that your customer's code won't have to be changed. I am saying it is likely to be trivial. Compare that to the greater effort involved in switching to a whole new database engine.
In general I'm a SQL Server person all the way. I work with id daily and have for almost ten years, but in your situatuion, it seems silly to consider moving to a new database when there is aclear upgrade path to do what you want using the backend you already have. It would be much less work and far less likely to introduce new bugs to stay within the same database family.
ADS wins hands down. It is maintenance-free. It is extremely reliable. It is extremely fast. It is extremely scalable. SQL is very well supported, and the ADS newsgroups are responsive (answers within hours instead of days on SQL server fora) and well-informed. I have been using ADS since 1991 and it has never gone wrong! My users are incredibly demanding and to be able to turn round solutions within hours instead of days, is both a joy to me and a business incentive to the end users and clients. Deployment is gentle, fast and simple. Platform support is better than SQL server. 64-bit server deployment abounds and is well-grounded, transparent and reliable. 64-bit clients are coming in the next version (10). My experience with ADS is wholly positive, whereas my ventures with SQL server have been fraught with difficulties, idiosyncrasies and workrounds!
I happen to be a support rep for Advantage so when you say "Obviously SQL Server is a more well known product probably with more support" I have to argue a bit.
As Chris stated switching from Advantage Local Server to the the Advantage Remote (client/server) Server is a pretty painless process - they designed it that way.
Install the Advantage Database Server on a machine where the data is located (not a requirement but it's recommended). You can get a free trial here: http://marketing.ianywhere.com/forms/ADS91-30-Day
Within the application there will be TAdsConnection component(s) - change the TAdsConnection.ConnectionType to 'REMOTE' (http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/dz/webhelp/Advantage9.1/mergedProjects/ade/sec7/connectiontype.htm)
You can specify the path (TAdsConnection.ConnectPath) from the clients in a couple different ways but the recommended is:
\\server:6262\mydata
http://devzone.advantagedatabase.com/dz/webhelp/Advantage9.1/mergedProjects/ade/sec7/connectpath_tadsconnection.htm
Note: 6262 is the port used by default (may need to add an exception to the firewall). Also if your application uses a data dictionary the path would include the name of the .ADD file (e.g. \\server:6262\mydata\mydd.add)
Hope this helps!
Listening to Scott Hanselman's interview with the Stack Overflow team (part 1 and 2), he was adamant that the SQL server and application server should be on separate machines. Is this just to make sure that if one server is compromised, both systems aren't accessible? Do the security concerns outweigh the complexity of two servers (extra cost, dedicated network connection between the two, more maintenance, etc.), especially for a small application, where neither piece is using too much CPU or memory? Even with two servers, with one server compromised, an attacker could still do serious damage, either by deleting the database, or messing with the application code.
Why would this be such a big deal if performance isn't an issue?
Security. Your web server lives in a DMZ, accessible to the public internet and taking untrusted input from anonymous users. If your web server gets compromised, and you've followed least privilege rules in connecting to your DB, the maximum exposure is what your app can do through the database API. If you have a business tier in between, you have one more step between your attacker and your data. If, on the other hand, your database is on the same server, the attacker now has root access to your data and server.
Scalability. Keeping your web server stateless allows you to scale your web servers horizontally pretty much effortlessly. It is very difficult to horizontally scale a database server.
Performance. 2 boxes = 2 times the CPU, 2 times the RAM, and 2 times the spindles for disk access.
All that being said, I can certainly see reasonable cases that none of those points really matter.
It doesn't really matter (you can quite happily run your site with web/database on the same machine), it's just the easiest step in scaling..
It's exactly what StackOverflow did - starting with single machine running IIS/SQL Server, then when it started getting heavily loaded, a second server was bought and the SQL server was moved onto that.
If performance is not an issue, do not waste money buying/maintaining two servers.
On the other hand, referring to a different blogging Scott (Watermasyck, of Telligent) - they found that most users could speed up the websites (using Telligent's Community Server), by putting the database on the same machine as the web site. However, in their customer's case, usually the db & web server are the only applications on that machine, and the website isn't straining the machine that much. Then, the efficiency of not having to send data across the network more that made up for the increased strain.
Tom is correct on this. Some other reasons are that it isn't cost effective and that there are additional security risks.
Webservers have different hardware requirements than database servers. Database servers fare better with a lot of memory and a really fast disk array while web servers only require enough memory to cache files and frequent DB requests (depending on your setup). Regarding cost effectiveness, the two servers won't necessarily be less expensive, however performance/cost ratio should be higher since you don't have to different applications competing for resources. For this reason, you're probably going to have to spend a lot more for one server which caters to both and offers equivalent performance to 2 specialized ones.
The security concern is that if the single machine is compromised, both webserver and database are vulnerable. With two servers, you have some breathing room as the 2nd server will still be secure (for a while at least).
Also, there are some scalability benefits since you may only have to maintain a few database servers that are used by a bunch of different web applications. This way you have less work to do applying upgrades or patches and doing performance tuning. I believe that there are server management tools for making these tasks easier though (in the single machine case).
I would think the big factor would be performance. Both the web server/app code and SQL Server would cache commonly requested data in memory and you're killing your cache performance by running them in the same memory space.
Security is a major concern. Ideally your database server should be sitting behind a firewall with only the ports required to perform data access opened. Your web application should be connecting to the database server with a SQL account that has just enough rights for the application to function and no more. For example you should remove rights that permit dropping of objects and most certainly you shouldn't be connecting using accounts such as 'sa'.
In the event that you lose the web server to a hijack (i.e. a full blown privilege escalation to administrator rights), the worst case scenario is that your application's database may be compromised but not the whole database server (as would be the case if the database server and web server were the same machine). If you've encrypted your database connection strings and the hacker isn't savvy enough to decrypt them then all you've lost is the web server.
One factor that hasn't been mentioned yet is load balancing. If you start off thinking of the web server and the database as separate machines, you optimize for fewer network round trips and also it gets easier to add a second web server or a second database engine as needs increase.
I agree with Daniel Earwicker - the security question is pretty much flawed.
If you have a single box setup with a webserver and only the database for that webserver on it, if that webserver is compromised you lose both the webserver and only the database for that specific application.
This is exactly the same as what happens if you lose the webserver on a 2-server setup. You lose the web server, and just the database for that specific application.
The argument that 'the rest of the DB server's integrity is maintained' where you have a 2-server setup is irrelevant, because in the first scenario, every other database server relating to every other application (if there are any) remain unaffected as well - being, as they are, hosted elsewhere.
Similarly, to the question posed by Kev 'what about all the other databases residing on the DB server? All you've lost is one database.'
if you were hosting an application and database on one server, you would only host databases on that server which related to that application. Therefore, you would not lose any additional databases in a single server setup when compared to a multiple server setup.
By contrast, in a 2 server setup, where the attacker had access to the Web Server, and by proxy, limited rights (in the best case scenario) to the database server, they could put the databases of every other application at risk by carrying out slow, memory intensive queries or maximising the available storage space on the database server. By separating the applications out into their own concerns, very much like virtualisation, you also isolate them for security purposes in a positive way.
I can speak from first hand experience that it is often a good idea to place the web server and database on different machines. If you have an application that is resource intensive, it can easily cause the CPU cycles on the machine to peak, essentially bringing the machine to a halt. However, if your application has limited use of the database, it would probably be no big deal to have them share a server.
Wow, No one brings up the fact that if you actually buy SQL server at 5k bucks, you might want to use it for more than your web application. If your using express, maybe you don't care. I see SQL servers run Databases for 20 to 30 applicaitions, so putting it on the webserver would not be smart.
Secondly, depends on whom the server is for. I do work for financial companies and the govt. So we use a crazy pain in the arse approach of using only sprocs and limiting ports from webserver to SQL. So if the web app gets hacked. The only thing the hacker can do is call sprocs as the user account on the webserver is locked down to only see/call sprocs on the DB. So now the hacker has to figure out how to get into the DB. If its on the web server well its kind of easy to get to.
It depends on the application and the purpose. When high availability and performance is not critical, it's not bad to not to separate the DB and web server. Especially considering the performance gains - if the appliation makes a large amount of database queries, a considerable amount of network load can be removed by keeping it all on the same system, keeping the response times low.
I listened to that podcast, and it was amusing, but the security argument made no sense to me. If you've compromised server A, and that server can access data on server B, then you instantly have access to the data on server B.
I think its because the two machines usually would need to be optimized in different ways. Other than that I have no idea, we run all our applications with the server-database on the same machine - granted we're not public facing - but we've had no problems.
I can't imagine that too many people care about one machine being compromised over both since the web application will usually have nearly unrestricted access to at the very least the data if not the schema inside the database.
Interested in what others might say.
Database licences are not cheep and are often charged per CPU, therefore by separating out your web-servers you can reduce the cost of your database licences.
E.g if you have 1 server doing both web and database that contains 8 CPUs you will have to pay for an 8 cpu licence. However if you have two servers each with 4 CPUs and runs the database on one server you will only have to pay for a 4 cpu licences
An additional concern is that databases like to take up all the available memory and hold it in reserve for when it wants to use it. You can force it to limit the memory but this can considerably slow data access.
Something not mentioned here, and the reason I am facing, is 0 downtime deployments. Currently I have DB/webserver on same machine and that makes updates a pain. If you they are on a seprate machine, you can perform A/B releases.
I.e.:
The DNS currently points to WebServerA
Apply sofware updates to WebServerB
Change DNS to point to WebServerB
Work on WebServerA at leisure for the next round of updates.
This works before the state is stored in the DB, on a separate server.
Arguing that there is a real performance gain to be had by running a database server on a web server is a flawed argument.
Since Database servers take query strings and return result sets, the data actually flowing from data server to web server is relatively small, but the horsepower required to process the query and generate the result set is relatively large. Optimizing performance around the data transfer time therefore is optimizing around the wrong thing.
Regarding security, there are advantages to having the data server on a different box than the web server. Having such a setup is not the be all and end all of security, but it is a step in the right direction.
Regarding scalability, it is easy and relatively cheap to add web servers and put them into cluster to handle increased traffic. It is not so easy and cheap to add data servers and cluster them. Also, web servers and data servers have different hardware needs, so multiple boxes help out with scalability.
If you are starting small and have only one box, then a good way would go would be to use virtual machines. Running the web server and data server in different VMs on one host gives you all the gains of separate boxes at the cost of one large box price.
Operating system is another consideration. While your database may require larger memory spaces and therefore UNIX, your web server - or more specifically your app server since you mention only two tiers - may be a .Net-based, and therefore require Windows.
Ok! Here is the thing, it is more Secure to have your DB Server installed on another Machine and your Application on the Web Server. You then connect your application to the DB with a Web Link. Thanks it.
Is it good, bad, or indifferent to run SQL Server on your webserver?
I'm using Server 2008 and SQL Server 2005, but I don't think that matters to this question.
For small sites, it doesn't make a bit of a difference.
As the load grows, though, this scales really badly, and quicker than you think:
Database servers are built on the premise they "own" the server. They trade memory for speed and they easily use all available RAM for internal caching.
Once resources start to be scarce, profiling becomes very difficult -- it is clear that IIS and SQL are both suffering, less clear where the bottleneck is. IIS needs CPU, SQL Server needs RAM or CPU etc etc
No matter how many layers you put in your code, it all runs on the same CPU, therefore a single layered application will run better in this context -- less overhead -- but it will not scale.
Security is really bad, usually you isolate SQL behind a firewall!
If you can afford it, it's probably better to shell out a few bucks and get a second server, maybe using PostgreSQL. One IIS server and one PostgreSQL cost about as much as on IIS + SQL Server because of licensing costs...
Larger shops would probably not consider this a best practice... However, if you aren't dealing with hundreds of requests per second, you're fine putting them both on one box.
In fact, for small apps, you will see better performance on the back-end because data does not have to go across the wire. It's all about scale.
Keep in mind that database servers eat memory. Here's one important lesson from the school of hard knocks: if you decide to run SQL Server 2005 on the same machine as your web server (and that is the setup you mentioned in your question), make sure you go into Sql Server Management Studio and do this:
Right click on the server instance and click properties
Select 'memory' from the list on the left
Change 'maximum server memory' to something your server can sustain.
If you don't do that, SQL Server will eventually take up all of your server's RAM and hang onto it indefinitely. This will cause your server to more or less sputter and die. If you are not aware of this, it can be very frustrating to troubleshoot.
I've done this quite a few times. It's not something you would do if you had the infrastructure of a large corporation and it does not scale, but it's fine for a lot of things.
It really comes down to how much work your webserver and your sql server are doing.
Without more information I doubt you are going to get any helpful answers.
If your web server is publicly accessible, this is a VERY bad idea from a security perspective.
Although it makes a lot of things more difficult from a routing, firewall, ports, authentication, etc. perspective, separation is good. When you have your database server running on the web server, if your web server is compromised, then your sql server is, too.
When you have them on separate boxes, you've raised the bar a little.
There's still a lot more work to be done to secure your web server AND your database server, but why make it easier than it needs to be?
I'd say it was best to run them on the same server until it becomes a problem. That way you'll save yourself some money and time upfront. Once the site becomes a success and requires a some architectural changes it should have already paid for itself.
Remember to back up :)
It will depend on the expected load of the server. For small sites, it is no problem at all (if correctly configured). For large sites, you might want to consider distributing the load over different servers: web server, file server, database server, etc.
I've seen this issue over and over again. The right answer is to put SQL Server on one machine and IIS (web server) on the other. Your money will go into the SQL Server machine because the right drive system and RAM must be purchased to support a efficient server but the web server can be a much scaled down & less expensive machine with just a mirrored drive set.
In a web application architecture with 1 app server (IIS) and 1 database server (MSSQL), if you had to pick one server to virtualize in a VM, which would it be: web or db?
Generally speaking of course.
Web of course.
Databases require too much IO bandwidth + It's easier to add instances or databases to a single instance, whereas isolated web servers benefit more.
Similar question... "Run Sharepoint 2003 on VMWare?". Sharepoint is just an asp.net application with a SQL Server back end.
The shortcoming of most virtual environments is I/O, especially disk. SQL is very I/O intensive. I am using a shared virtual host and the slow I/O is killing me.
That said, Microsoft is pushing SQL on Hyper-V. It's a hypervisor, which means its a thinner layer between the VM and the hardware, and the drivers are quasi-native. Here's their whitepaper: http://download.microsoft.com/download/d/9/4/d948f981-926e-40fa-a026-5bfcf076d9b9/SQL2008inHyperV2008.docx
Looks like for SQL, you will lose ~10% performance overall. The upside is that you can move the whole instance to another box quickly, bump up the RAM, etc.
Another thing to consider is Intel's enterprise SSD drives (X25-E). I imagine that would help a lot in a virtual environment. Pricey, of course.
I would probably decide depending on the amount of computation required by the app server, versus the amount of computation/io done by the database.
With that said I would think most of the time the DB should NOT be virtualized. Virtualization isn't too hot for db's that have to ensure that data remains nice and safe on a disk, and adding another abstraction layer can't help with that.
If you have two physical servers there is no need to virtualise - use one server for IIS and one for the database.
If you have one physical server there is also no need to virtualise.
If I had to choose, it would be the web server. The database would benefit in terms of performance by running on a physical server. If the web server is virtualised, it makes it quick and easy to clone it to create a cluster of web servers.
With today's hypervisors and best practices you can virtualise both infrastructures. When you virtualise your DB infrastructure it is best to ensure that the DB is installed onto a SAN based system so that IO performance is not a bottleneck.
As with everything there are the right and wrong way of doing things but following vendor best practices and testing will enable you to squeeze the best performance out of your VM instances.
There are plenty of whitepapers and performance testing from the various vendors should you want to virtualise your entire infrastructure.
Even though virtualisation again is an industry hot topic with various vendors now giving away hypervisors for free, this does not mean that using virtualisation is the way forward. Server consolidation yes, performance enhancing maybe - YMMV